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Acorn At Its Best (pg. 4)
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| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Is it just me or is Krypton moving further to the left and the17sss moving further to the right with each passing day?
You guys wonder why nobody posts in the PDD anymore - it's because nearly everyone has radicalized and there's hardly any room for give and take in discussion now. |
I'm willing to give the health insurance companies a 5 year notice of liquidation. :gsmile:
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
I'm kind of sick of this debate, but I will throw this in there regarding rationing. You would have to be crazy not to think there will be rationing of care at some level given current proposals. It is simply not feasible to try to bring that many tens of millions of people into the fold on any sort of limited budget and NOT have to ration care at some level. The argument is valid. It is mathematically irrational to believe otherwise with such conviction. |
There is a limited number of resources so of course there is rationing. But healthcare is a public good which should not be in the hands of for-profit corporations. We want whatever entity is providing health insurance to return profits not to shareholders, but to the policy holders. No more denials of coverage, no more co-pays, no more conjuring reasons just to cancel policies, no more insurance claims departments rewarding employees who save the corporation money by denying and cancelling coverage. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Is it just me or is Krypton moving further to the left and the17sss moving further to the right with each passing day?
You guys wonder why nobody posts in the PDD anymore - it's because nearly everyone has radicalized and there's hardly any room for give and take in discussion now. |
Krypton moving further to the left, yes. It's a stunning dichotomy because in real life, he is striving to build and run a successful capitalist business endeavor based on profit to improve the life of himself and his family. He is now advocating the ultimate mistake in governmental hubris: assuming that a small group of politicians untrained in running businesses are experts over a majority of those who do... you can't subscribe to that kind of Statist thinking without believing those politicians are intellectually and ethically superior to the masses. He is now saying, forget what the people want... the majority of the population is stupid and can't make decisions for themselves, only government can; and if the masses don't subscribe to this particular form of health care legislation, we know what's best for them because we're intellectually superior and we need to hold their hands and "do what's best for them".
Me moving further to the right? Not happening- my views remain unchanged. And, I am surprisingly centrist and liberal on some issues too btw. I am just increasingly vocal about the big issues because, let's be honest- our president presented the illusion of being a centrist to win an election, and has been sprinting to the left ever since... the more his agenda, expiring promises, radical associations, and lies/hypocrices get exposed the more angry I get. Lebez, you can't possibly be satisfied with the direction we're being taken either. Despite our differences, I think you're a really smart guy- and I would bet you believe in fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility for achievement, not relying on government to provide and sustain your life, and keeping the majority of the money you earn. |
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| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Krypton moving further to the left, yes. It's a stunning dichotomy because in real life, he is striving to build and run a successful capitalist business endeavor based on profit to improve the life of himself and his family. |
I am not for the government controlling the means of production of the economy. That's just one giant straw man argument.
| quote: | | He is now advocating the ultimate mistake in governmental hubris: assuming that a small group of politicians untrained in running businesses are experts over a majority of those who do... you can't subscribe to that kind of Statist thinking without believing those politicians are intellectually and ethically superior to the masses. |
The premise of your argument is abjectly false. No one is advocating politicians running healthcare. We are advocating for a system in which the public good of healthcare is provided for by the taxpayers instead of private insurance companies. How about our tax dollars going to serving us the taxpayers instead of buying $1 million bombs destined for Ali Baba in his cave.
| quote: | | He is now saying, forget what the people want... the majority of the population is stupid and can't make decisions for themselves, only government can; and if the masses don't subscribe to this particular form of health care legislation, we know what's best for them because we're intellectually superior and we need to hold their hands and "do what's best for them". |
You must be referring to those polls you posted and to which I addressed each one on how ridiculous they are. I'll say again, if 61% of Americans are satisfied with health care costs, that means they are satisfied with America spending multiple times more money on healthcare than our Western peers and their commie healthcare as a percentage of GDP. If 61% of Americans truly believe that, and I doubt they do, then yes, they are idiots. Yes 61% of Americans are idiots. There I said it.
| quote: | | Me moving further to the right? Not happening- my views remain unchanged. |
I assume you agree with 99% of the things Rush Limbaugh says, and that man is way off the center right.
I will purge you--->  |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
I am not for the government controlling the means of production of the economy. That's just one giant straw man argument. |
So you don't advocate 80% of AIG being owned by the government now? Or GM being owned by the government? Or 16% of the private sector economy being run by the gov... oh wait, yes you do. Politicians have more power over the banking industry than any banker, more control over the automobile industry than any private sector executive, and demand more power over medicine than any doctor.
| quote: | | The premise of your argument is abjectly false. No one is advocating politicians running healthcare. We are advocating for a system in which the public good of healthcare is provided for by the taxpayers instead of private insurance companies. How about our tax dollars going to serving us the taxpayers instead of buying $1 million bombs destined for Ali Baba in his cave. |
But they will if HR 3200 passes... they will have the ultimate say when they control the purse strings. What's abjectly false is the premise that a government controlled healthcare system will lead to improvements in quality of care, service, and will be "deficit netural" as Obama hilariously claims. Name 1 single government run program that can be used as a model to private sector entities, and has not gone substantially over budget. Here is a perfect example of what will happen to us here, as is happening in the UK now, pointed out by Mark Steyn:
| quote: | | The minute a first-world country has “free” health care, it becomes the provider of choice to anyone who can get there, particularly for any long-term ailments requiring state-of-the-art medications. In 2004, Britain’s Health Protection Agency revealed that 44 percent of HIV patients being treated by the National Health Service were not residents of the United Kingdom at all, but from southern Africa. In essence, a huge number of AIDS patients in South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Malawi, Swaziland, and Lesotho have decided to outsource their health-care needs to British taxpayers. Similar trends will manifest themselves here in nothing flat. |
more unintended consequences from liberal policies. but the intentions are soooo good :)
| quote: | | You must be referring to those polls you posted and to which I addressed each one on how ridiculous they are. I'll say again, if 61% of Americans are satisfied with health care costs, that means they are satisfied with America spending multiple times more money on healthcare than our Western peers and their commie healthcare as a percentage of GDP. If 61% of Americans truly believe that, and I doubt they do, then yes, they are idiots. Yes 61% of Americans are idiots. There I said it. |
You addressed what you perceive to be rediculous because you don't see eye to eye with the majority of the people polled. You can't deny it man- a clear and large majority prefer their quality of coverage, perfer the cost of it, and a majority oppose HR 3200.
| quote: | | I assume you agree with 99% of the things Rush Limbaugh says, and that man is way off the center right. |
I don't... do you agree with 99% of what Keith Olbermann says? |
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| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
So you don't advocate 80% of AIG being owned by the government now? Or GM being owned by the government? Or 16% of the private sector economy being run by the gov... oh wait, yes you do. Politicians have more power over the banking industry than any banker, more control over the automobile industry than any private sector executive, and demand more power over medicine than any doctor. |
Your premise is far too black and white. Do you really want to go into the reasons why the government bailed out AIG? Seriously, do you want to? Again, the government does not own the factors of production of the economy.
| quote: | | But they will if HR 3200 passes... they will have the ultimate say when they control the purse strings. What's abjectly false is the premise that a government controlled healthcare system will lead to improvements in quality of care, service, and will be "deficit netural" as Obama hilariously claims. Name 1 single government run program that can be used as a model to private sector entities, and has not gone substantially over budget. Here is a perfect example of what will happen to us here, as is happening in the UK now, pointed out by Mark Steyn: |
Which is why we use the exorbitant premiums being paid to insurance companies and divert it to a single payer system. Nobody is saying it's "free".
| quote: | | more unintended consequences from liberal policies. but the intentions are soooo good :) |
HA! And the consequences of lettings private insurance companies do this to us...
"Among the investigation’s discoveries was that the total compensation for one of the insurance CEOs (Identity not revealed in the hearing) was $1.2 BILLION, that rescissions of health insurance policies had netted insurance companies savings of $300 MILLION, and that, within the insurance industry claims investigation departments, insurance investigators were performance rated according to the sums they saved the company by rescinding policies. One such example cited was an employee who was heralded by the company for having saved the corporation $10,000,000 by canceling policies when healthcare claims were posted."
...is far more desirable huh?
| quote: | | You addressed what you perceive to be rediculous because you don't see eye to eye with the majority of the people polled. You can't deny it man- a clear and large majority prefer their quality of coverage, perfer the cost of it, and a majority oppose HR 3200. |
Two options. The polls are flawed or Americans really are that stupid. I'd have to default to the first option though I have my doubts about American competency on this issue. Clearly 61% of Americans being fine with bearing the highest cost to healthcare in the world is ludicrous and only speaks of the Fallacy if the Majority.
| quote: | | I don't... do you agree with 99% of what Keith Olbermann says? |
Keith Olbermann is no where near as radical as Rush Limbaugh. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
Rationing? Obvious scare tactic. Everyone gets treated if they really need it. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
There is a limited number of resources so of course there is rationing. |
You are conflicted.
| quote: | | But healthcare is a public good which should not be in the hands of for-profit corporations. |
Healthcare is a service provided by profit-minded individuals that have spent years of their lives and hundreds of thousands of dollars educating and preparing themselves so that they can make a comfortable living for themselves and their families. They have the exactly the same rights as you do. I've yet to read a compelling argument to the contrary which doesn't completely disregard the rights of those individuals. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
let's be honest- our president presented the illusion of being a centrist to win an election, and has been sprinting to the left ever since... the more his agenda, expiring promises, radical associations, and lies/hypocrices get exposed the more angry I get. |
I just don't see it that way. I'm pissed at Obama too for a couple of reasons, but sprinting to the left is certainly not one of them. His domestic policy proposals are in a shambles. He's taken no action on education or social equality (at least since his first week in office), and his health care position is muddled and ineffectual. So yeah, I'm not happy, but to be honest I think it's because he's too busy trying to placate both sides of the political divide to take any action on anything.
On foreign policy I think we've seen some real leadership from Obama, and I have a lot fewer complaints.
| quote: | | Lebez, you can't possibly be satisfied with the direction we're being taken either. Despite our differences, I think you're a really smart guy- and I would bet you believe in fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility for achievement, not relying on government to provide and sustain your life, and keeping the majority of the money you earn. |
I'd characterize myself as a weak liberal in the sense that I do believe in fiscal responsibility - in fact, I would call myself a fiscal conservative. There are definite areas where government can scale back, but I do still believe that there is a definite role that government can play in facilitating the improvement of lives of the people. Governments are created to provide national security and national development - we're not done with that mission yet. |
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| ziptnf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I just don't see it that way. I'm pissed at Obama too for a couple of reasons, but sprinting to the left is certainly not one of them. His domestic policy proposals are in a shambles. He's taken no action on education or social equality (at least since his first week in office), and his health care position is muddled and ineffectual. So yeah, I'm not happy, but to be honest I think it's because he's too busy trying to placate both sides of the political divide to take any action on anything. |
It's hard for any president to do everything at once. He already tried to speak to the students about staying in school and studying hard, but most people took that as a slanted political message, didn't they? ;)
As far as health care is concerned, I'm glad that he's reaching across the isles, but I'm with Krypton here: Nobody should have to pay for their health insurance. America is a huge country, and people should have the option to be covered under private insurance, but it shouldn't be obligated, as it should already be covered for them. Again, too many wasted tax dollars killing our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and people complain that we're trying to fix our ed up health care policy? :stongue: It makes me sick that so many people oppose Obama trying to reform health care, they think it's some kind of government takeover. Ridiculous.
| quote: | | Governments are created to provide national security and national development - we're not done with that mission yet. |
I think health care falls under national development, doesn't it? The nation can't exactly improve if everyone is sick ;) |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by ziptnf
I think health care falls under national development, doesn't it? The nation can't exactly improve if everyone is sick ;) |
Oh, I agree with you. I'm not particularly enthralled with the details of this proposal, but I am all for a workable public option. |
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| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
You are conflicted. |
No I'm not. The argument that there will be rationing is ridiculous. Of course there will be rationing. Right now that rationing is according to one's ability to afford healthcare. This just shouldn't be.
| quote: | | Healthcare is a service provided by profit-minded individuals that have spent years of their lives and hundreds of thousands of dollars educating and preparing themselves so that they can make a comfortable living for themselves and their families. They have the exactly the same rights as you do. I've yet to read a compelling argument to the contrary which doesn't completely disregard the rights of those individuals. |
The issue is how do we provide access to healthcare in the same way everyone has free (through tax payment) access to public sidewalks and streets. It's a public good. Sorry if Dr. Johnson can't make $1 million a year. Doctors live very well in the UK, Canada, etc. Going by your logic, electricians have a right to get paid huge salaries too, but they'r being held back by the monopolized public utilities!
Do you want your tax dollars going to buying bombs or do you want it to actually work for the people? You'r paying taxes and not receiving anything in return for it. Don't you have a problem with that? The reason people in the EU and Canada OVERWHELMINGLY support universal healthcare is because they know their tax dollars aren't being spent on crap, but that they actually get something in return. Rich and poor. In America, most people pay taxes, and get absolutely nothing in return. This explains how people in these countries accept their high tax rates relative to ours. They actually benefit from it. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
No I'm not. The argument that there will be rationing is ridiculous. Of course there will be rationing. Right now that rationing is according to one's ability to afford healthcare. This just shouldn't be.
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OK, I get it. It's a ridiculous argument that is true. Ok, buddy. In other words, it's a valid argument that you can't really debate so you'd rather call it ridiculous and sweep it under the rug. You can't have a comprehensive debate without dealing with all of the issues and consequences and the reality that there will be rationing of care is a major point of debate.
| quote: | | The issue is how do we provide access to healthcare in the same way everyone has free (through tax payment) access to public sidewalks and streets. It's a public good. Sorry if Dr. Johnson can't make $1 million a year. Doctors live very well in the UK, Canada, etc. Going by your logic, electricians have a right to get paid huge salaries too, but they'r being held back by the monopolized public utilities! |
This is one of the most asinine statements I have ever seen. So Doctors are now the bad guys, but it's your fundamental right to extract whatever you think you need from them with no regard for their rights? I think your doctors should have a fundamental right to any of the profits you generate in your investment business. Sorry, but your success needs to be capped. Electricians have a right to charge as much as they want for their services and the market will determine if they are charging too much money. Frankly, that argument is both irrelevant and illogical.
| quote: |
Do you want your tax dollars going to buying bombs or do you want it to actually work for the people? You'rE paying taxes and not receiving anything in return for it. Don't you have a problem with that? The reason people in the EU and Canada OVERWHELMINGLY support universal healthcare is because they know their tax dollars aren't being spent on crap, but that they actually get something in return. Rich and poor. In America, most people pay taxes, and get absolutely nothing in return. This explains how people in these countries accept their high tax rates relative to ours. They actually benefit from it. |
What if I want neither? I have a problem with the massive amounts of debt that our country is buried under. I want costs cut across the board. You have no idea why those people support universal healthcare. Perhaps they like it because of the perception that it is "free." Hey, free money! I like that! Americans get nothing in return for they're taxes? You're out to lunch and your arguments are flimsy as . |
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| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
OK, I get it. It's a ridiculous argument that is true. Ok, buddy. In other words, it's a valid argument that you can't really debate so you'd rather call it ridiculous and sweep it under the rug. You can't have a comprehensive debate without dealing with all of the issues and consequences and the reality that there will be rationing of care is a major point of debate. |
Sweep it under the rug? Re-read my post. I said rationing right now is done according to one's ability to pay. That should not be the standard of rationing and isn't in countries like the UK.
| quote: | | This is one of the most asinine statements I have ever seen. So Doctors are now the bad guys, but it's your fundamental right to extract whatever you think you need from them with no regard for their rights? I think your doctors should have a fundamental right to any of the profits you generate in your investment business. Sorry, but your success needs to be capped. Electricians have a right to charge as much as they want for their services and the market will determine if they are charging too much money. Frankly, that argument is both irrelevant and illogical. |
Where did I ever say doctor's are the bad guys? See you'r just twisting my arguments to mean something completely different.
Doctors are public servants just like police or firefighters. If a doctor wants to make $1 million a year, fine, he just won't be making that within the system. That doctor will still have the freedom to make his $1 million, just not within the single-payer system.
| quote: | | What if I want neither? I have a problem with the massive amounts of debt that our country is buried under. I want costs cut across the board. |
As do I. How about we start off by ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? The money spent there would have been more than enough to provide universal healthcare or college education.
| quote: | | You have no idea why those people support universal healthcare. Perhaps they like it because of the perception that it is "free." Hey, free money! I like that! Americans get nothing in return for they're taxes? You're out to lunch and your arguments are flimsy as . |
Once again, you'v twisted the argument. No wonder you can call my misrepresented arguments as "flimsy".
It's not "free". Taxpayers pay for the system. The billions currently paid in premiums to insurance companies should be redirected towards the single payer system. There is plenty of money to fund this system. And yes, I do know why the high tax rates in Europe are accepted. EVERYONE BENEFITS. In America, FEW BENEFIT. |
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