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how important is side chain compression? (pg. 3)
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| Richard Butler |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
sell any hardware you have to someone who is a musician, not a hack who thinks "great sound" turns boring melodies and boring rhythms into gold. |
I don't think anyone would say 'boring melodies' can be 'produced' into something decent.
No, it's about making the best melody / riff one can and then apply exceptional production values.
Billy Jean done by a rock singer with ordinary sounding guitars and drums would simply not have been the monster that Jacko came up with. |
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| Mr.Mystery |
| quote: | Originally posted by Richard Butler
Yes great chord progressions and melodies can be very satisfying, but the overall waveform that hits my ear is what it's about.
To take a simple track, which I don't love, but is very satisfying to be on the end of - Eric Pryd's 'call on me'. Again not my sort of thing, but I can see why it sold so well.
I've met plenty of musicians that can write good complex melodies but the end result is so boring. They forget the all important production values.
Phil Spectre said in a fairly recent TV documentary that p[roduction was everything, but most musiscians do not understand this.
Take Jean Michelle Jarres brilliant stuff - Oxygene and Equinox. Great melodies yet when many people reproduced these in the 1980's under the 'synth classic tracks' package, those same brilliant tunes were horriC |
I really have no idea where you were supposed to go with this, but all I can say is we're on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. |
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| Sonic_c |
| Maybe people should accept that getting the software hardware to do what you want is part of the creative process. An artist mixing paints to get a different shade, is the paint mixing part of the creative process? yeah i think so |
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| evo8 |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
People who think technical skill is more important than musical content should just stop producing. Right now.
No, I am not kidding. Delete your DAW and all your softsynths, and sell any hardware you have to someone who is a musician, not a hack who thinks "great sound" turns boring melodies and boring rhythms into gold. |
agree. |
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| LoveHate |
hmm this always turns into an arguement. but i guess i did get some answers out of it..
was pretty much looking for the main things to learn..equing,compression, etc. ill do some searches for some more answers..
i found the best way of learning is just completing tracks |
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| studiobob |
prydz - call on me. you lose the fact that the producers has mastered the art of side chain compression. you take that away and i guarantee that would not have a been a hit. very simple stuff. but the simple tracks have to be exceptionally well produced to work. and when i say produced i dont just mean eq/compression, i also mean selecting the right sounds that work with each other in the mix. atb - 9pm. put a different type of lead in place of that famous sound and what you have??
good point about JMJ. messed about with midi files of his and got nowhere close. all about the production :0) |
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| owien |
| quote: | Originally posted by LoveHate
hmm this always turns into an arguement. but i guess i did get some answers out of it..
was pretty much looking for the main things to learn..equing,compression, etc. ill do some searches for some more answers..
i found the best way of learning is just completing tracks |
a great tip is to find a loop that has been made to sidechain and use it as a marker and try to copy what you here in the loop.
same for compression make something that hasn't been compressed then play around with the plugins you have or demos and try to compress it and see what happens |
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| evo8 |
| quote: | Originally posted by studiobob
prydz - call on me. you lose the fact that the producers has mastered the art of side chain compression. you take that away and i guarantee that would not have a been a hit. very simple stuff. but the simple tracks have to be exceptionally well produced to work. and when i say produced i dont just mean eq/compression, i also mean selecting the right sounds that work with each other in the mix. atb - 9pm. put a different type of lead in place of that famous sound and what you have??
good point about JMJ. messed about with midi files of his and got nowhere close. all about the production :0) |
so side-chain compression is an art now? me |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by evo8
so side-chain compression is an art now? me |
Hahaha.
Don't forget about side-chained gating and side-chained multiband compression. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Richard Butler
Phil Spectre in the 1970's had the mantra - production is everything, and I agree.
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OK, let's put this into perspective since you've brought it up twice. Phil Spector worked with some of the most talented performers and songwriters of the last century, including the Beatles, Tina Turner, The Righteous Brothers, etc. These are musicians who perfected the art of songwriting over many decades. Spector did NOT work with complete newbies who couldn't tell an F#dim7 chord from a bass clef symbol and turn their tracks into wonderful Grammy-winning works of art. He worked with the best of the best - artists who could deliver a standout performance on any given day of the week and who could write songs like no others. When you're working with that kind of raw material and talent, yeah, you can make the point that production is everything. But, even Spector's not naive enough to believe that he can turn some newbie bedroom producer's 8-minutes of plucks repeating an Amin chord ad nauseum into a top ten hit through some production magic without completely rewriting the track.
That said, yes, the technical side is important, but it's not the most important part of producing. A solid song with a great performance/delivery is. |
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| derail |
| quote: | Originally posted by studiobob
prydz - call on me. you lose the fact that the producers has mastered the art of side chain compression. you take that away and i guarantee that would not have a been a hit. very simple stuff. but the simple tracks have to be exceptionally well produced to work. and when i say produced i dont just mean eq/compression, i also mean selecting the right sounds that work with each other in the mix. atb - 9pm. put a different type of lead in place of that famous sound and what you have??
good point about JMJ. messed about with midi files of his and got nowhere close. all about the production :0) |
'Call on me' has a very catchy hook. Not everyone's cup of tea, but take that hook away and there won't be much left.
'9pm (Til I come)' has very dated production values. Put it next to a modern driving trance song and it can't compete, in terms of production values. There are a number of things that could be improved upon, but it doesn't matter, because it's a great song.
And to say that Jean Michel Jarre is "all about the production" is staggering. His music is beautiful. The sounds aren't modern, the mixes aren't up to modern production values, but the songs and melodies are timeless.
Can you provide a true example of "technique is everything"? Something where a great song/ hook didn't come first?
Nobody here is saying that making things sound incredible, and having the best production values, is unimportant. These things are incredibly important. Incredibly. But my sign in my studio will still say "first beautiful music". |
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| Richard Butler |
Jean Micchelle Jarre's songs were copied many times in the 80's and 90's and released on those synthesizer classics albums.
So lets imagine instead of the JMJ releases, the first ever release was instead those synthesizer classics versions. There is NO WAY one of those would have been a hit, no way at all.
So I guess both the hook / melody and then the sonic presentation are all important.
However, nowadays a good melody will not be a sucess without a good production, whereas a good or great production with an 'ok' melody can still be a hit - just switch the radio on and you will hear plenty of examples.
So on balance, the sonic packaging, aka the production values are probably for me the most important factor, but that does not mean we should abandon good song writing of course.
One thing to add, I know some pepes that went on music theory courses, and yet not one has been signed in all these years. Each one of them is hamstringed with lack of production ability. One can get on an accoustic guitar and sing great original stuff, but no one wants to sign him. |
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