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Is this whats happening or am I hearing things?
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| DJ Robby Rox |
I recently just started using limiters in my tracks I use to hate them but now I do see the purpose.
Anyway, I had slapped a limiter over a kick/bass line (typical sidechained running bass).
And as it was looping, I went in to change the timing on the notes a bit and randomize the note lengths to get a more natural feel like I always do. Well the first half bar of bassline notes became slightly shorter then the second half (some notes were the same but in general most notes were shorter in the first half.
And I instantly noticed a massive change in dynamics that I've never heard before w/out a limiter by just changing note lengths. But this is what it sounds like and I wanna know if my guess is accurate.
A limiter will raise lower sounds right?
And keep higher sounds from peaking?
But a limiter also does other things imo that are very subtle. Because after I did this it just seemed to drive intensely. If you have half a bassline with shorter notes then average, I believe even if the volume is the same in all those notes, that the limiter still treats the first and second half differently depending on the actual note length.
Because it sounded like when the shorter notes hit, the kick dropped out a bit and the bass got thicker, but when the longer notes hit, the bass thinned out and the kick got thicker (again very subtle but noticeable if you produce). And the affect actually seemed to become a sort of rotating "in/out" of both the bass and kick that created this really cool drive.
So my question is, if you change the actual note lengths on a kick/bass, is this whats actually happening? Because theres overall more head room with shorter notes so the limiter will push up the bass notes? I love the way it sounds.. |
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| RichieV |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
A limiter will raise lower sounds right?
And keep higher sounds from peaking?
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nope
A limiter functions the same as a compressor except the ratio is higher than 10. Depending on the release, the length of note will affect the time it takes for the signal to go back up. Just lime a compressor. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| If you are changing the timing of the notes, that could change the shape or height of the transients depending on how the bass is hitting in relation to the kick. And of course the shape of the transients will determine how they get compressed by the limiter. There is nothing magical about a limiter, it operates the same as a compressor: it squashes the peaks in your track, based on the settings you use. |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by RichieV
nope
A limiter functions the same as a compressor except the ratio is higher than 10. Depending on the release, the length of note will affect the time it takes for the signal to go back up. Just lime a compressor. |
Ok then maybe its the ratio difference I'm not use too hearing then. Thanks! |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
If you are changing the timing of the notes, that could change the shape or height of the transients depending on how the bass is hitting in relation to the kick. And of course the shape of the transients will determine how they get compressed by the limiter. There is nothing magical about a limiter, it operates the same as a compressor: it squashes the peaks in your track, based on the settings you use. |
Ok then I have a question maybe you can answer.
When the limiter slices peaks off what exactly happens to those peaks? Do they just get pushed down into the rest of the signal? That is what everyone means by "squashing" right?
Im trying to imagine it like a water balloon, you push down on the top and sides push out more, so then with that concept a limiter/compressor can technically change the duration of a note. If it squashes a sharp signal down, the signal becomes shorter, but also becomes longer right? Just wanna make sure I'm clear on how my kick & bass are interacting. And I think the change I'm hearing is the compression ratio then like Richie said. If the ratio is higher, then its overall going to have a more intense affect that a compressor?
Cause the thing thats confusing me is it seems to be raising the bass volume w/out destroying my peaks as severely as a compressor would. I dont wanna drag this out I've been reading for a good 45mins and as easy as it is to understand the concept of what both do, I'm trying to understand the advantages/disadvantges more closely, and when its best to pick a compressor over a limiter or vice versa.
edit: I know this all sounds newbie but the fact is I just never used limiters before. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Ok then I have a question maybe you can answer.
When the limiter slices peaks off what exactly happens to those peaks? Do they just get pushed down into the rest of the signal? That is what everyone means by "squashing" right? |
By "squashing" I just mean that the limiter turns the volume of the signal down when it gets loud. That is all a compressor really is, an automatic volume control whose settings you specify.
| quote: | | ...so then with that concept a limiter/compressor can technically change the duration of a note. |
Not exactly, although it can change the perceived length of a note if you squash down the attack stage and then apply makeup gain so the note seems more "sustained." This is why guitar players will often apply compression to get a more "powerful" and sustained sound out of what is initially a very "plucky" sounding instrument.
| quote: | | If the ratio is higher, then its overall going to have a more intense affect that a compressor? |
Keeping the threshold and attack settings the same, then yes, the effect will be more intense with a higher ratio.
This is all kind of abstract without samples and without you telling what compressor / limiter settings you are using. |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
By "squashing" I just mean that the limiter turns the volume of the signal down when it gets loud. That is all a compressor really is, an automatic volume control whose settings you specify.
Not exactly, although it can change the perceived length of a note if you squash down the attack stage and then apply makeup gain so the note seems more "sustained." This is why guitar players will often apply compression to get a more "powerful" and sustained sound out of what is initially a very "plucky" sounding instrument.
Keeping the threshold and attack settings the same, then yes, the effect will be more intense with a higher ratio.
This is all kind of abstract without samples and without you telling what compressor / limiter settings you are using. |
No thats fine, its abstract but still more then relevant imo.
My last question I swear, I'll keep it simple lol. But I've never exactly understood this.
You have a signal going into a channel at -4 db, you increase the "gain" on the compressor 4db, the volume now goes to 0db.
If you don't touch anything else but the gain on the compressor, (threshold,attack,etc) then raising the gain 4db is the SAME exact effect as raising the volume on the channel 4db too right?
And then the attack/threshold is like applying an envelope? See this is suppose to be easy to understand, but now I'm thinking a compressor is the same exact thing as a simple amp envelope. Isn't it basically doing the same thing that an amp envelope would?
If this is driving you crazy its cool if you wanna bail lol. But its like almost appying a second amp envelope, over a fixed one? (if you need me to explain that further let me know) |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
If you don't touch anything else but the gain on the compressor, (threshold,attack,etc) then raising the gain 4db is the SAME exact effect as raising the volume on the channel 4db too right? |
Makeup gain (aka output gain) is the same as any old gain control, you are just raising the volume. Some compressors have an "input gain" control which allows you to increase the volume of the signal *before* it is compressed, which will obviously intensify the effect of the compression as the peaks get higher.
| quote: | | And then the attack/threshold is like applying an envelope? See this is suppose to be easy to understand, but now I'm thinking a compressor is the same exact thing as a simple amp envelope. Isn't it basically doing the same thing that an amp envelope would? |
No, not exactly. The compressor's envelope is applied to the signal *only* when the signal exceeds the threshold. The "attack" and "release" settings do have a similar meaning to those on a typical amp envelope, with "attack" specifying how fast the compression will kick in and the "release" specifying how quickly the signal will stop being compressed once it goes back under the threshold. |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Makeup gain (aka output gain) is the same as any old gain control, you are just raising the volume. Some compressors have an "input gain" control which allows you to increase the volume of the signal *before* it is compressed, which will obviously intensify the effect of the compression as the peaks get higher.
No, not exactly. The compressor's envelope is applied to the signal *only* when the signal exceeds the threshold. The "attack" and "release" settings do have a similar meaning to those on a typical amp envelope, with "attack" specifying how fast the compression will kick in and the "release" specifying how quickly the signal will stop being compressed once it goes back under the threshold. |
Ok thats perfect, you couldn't have explained it any clearer thank you!
A compressor is def not what I thought it was before I made this thread. |
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| DJ RANN |
Jst wanted to carify one thing.
It's a bit misleading IMO, to suggest that a compressor can make notes seem longer. I know it *can* in very rare specific circumstances seem like a compressor could give the feeling of it being longer, but that's just beacuse the attack and release are altered of the given sound interacting with other elements of the track (bass for instance) that were obscuring the tail before . The sound post compressor cannot be longer than the original
input.
The baloon analogy is therefore also misleading as that suggests the amplitude (gain) of the sound is directly porptionately linked to time (length of the sound). With a baloon, it's just mass doisplacement. With the compressor, the amplitude is affected discreetly. Yes, with a compressor, time can be affected as well, but this is a separate perameter and can be completely separate from amplitude. What I'm saying is just becuase you squashed the gain, there is not a given displacment relative to the legnth, unless you change those settings (attack and release). If you add more compression in terms of gain, there is no "cause and effect" taking place to make it sound longer.
Don't mean to confuse you Robby but just don't want you thinking that the two elements have an automatically direct relationship.
Think of it more like a bike pump with your finger over the hole. The air can get compressed inside by downward pressure (gain, ratio) and depending on how you let the air out by moving your finger (attack, release) the compressed air will react.
It's not a perfect analogy but it's the best I can up with right now :crazy: |
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| henryv |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Makeup gain (aka output gain) is the same as any old gain control, you are just raising the volume. Some compressors have an "input gain" control which allows you to increase the volume of the signal *before* it is compressed, which will obviously intensify the effect of the compression as the peaks get higher.
No, not exactly. The compressor's envelope is applied to the signal *only* when the signal exceeds the threshold. The "attack" and "release" settings do have a similar meaning to those on a typical amp envelope, with "attack" specifying how fast the compression will kick in and the "release" specifying how quickly the signal will stop being compressed once it goes back under the threshold. |
very interesting! thank you. |
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