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Any trance pros mixdown in Ableton? (pg. 2)
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| Kevy Kev |
Yes I do and I'm a professional. Now use ableton and make hits just like me 36 mafia and Tiesto.
All day errrrr day son. |
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| DjStephenWiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ry Thomas
Any trance pros mixdown in Ableton?
Not this again . . . |
No right. Where is the thread that talks about the aliasing and how insignificant it is. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| Personally I would like to see a thread that explains how this obsession with tiny differences in sound quality will result in better music. |
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| DjStephenWiley |
All you will find is so and so uses Logic, so it's better.
I have seen Black Jarrell come on here and talk about how he used to use Ableton for mix downs, but now prefers Logic. That's great and I have a ton of respect for him (the way he rose to power is the exact approach I'm trying to take) but I'd like a little bit better explanation than that.
I'm a huge believer that 24 bit samplers are better than 16 bit samplers, and math shows this is pretty much impossible when filtered to a 320kbps mp3, so maybe its one of those cases where the audibles are there but the math doesn't add up?
I don't know. All I know is there are tons of people who are "pro's" that mix entire tracks and even albums down in Ableton. Talent and knowing what you're doing are so much more important than worrying about something like this. you'd be better off reading a measly tweek article than worry about this. |
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| echosystm |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjStephenWiley
I'm a huge believer that 24 bit samplers are better than 16 bit samplers, and math shows this is pretty much impossible when filtered to a 320kbps mp3, so maybe its one of those cases where the audibles are there but the math doesn't add up?
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what? lol :haha: |
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| Beatflux |
I think I've read too many arguments and flame wars that go back and forth to form a warn out circle that it's all old hat for me. Most people every DAW is the same. Some people think that there are differences,but skill can make up for them. Some people think each DAW has it's own unique sound. Some people think that musical ideas are more important and that the sound quality of a DAW is a minor thing.
I have been A/Bing Chicane - Poppiholla(Thrillseekers Remix) with Airbase - Back(Original Mix) and there is a pretty big difference. The former being mixed down in Cubase and the latter Ableton, there's a big difference in spacial quality. The Airbase mix sounds much flatter, while the Thrill mix has a darker background and every sound seems to pop out more.
If you have a really good example of a clear and 3D mix from Ableton, I would like to hear it. |
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| Nightshift |
I would say check out Marcus Shossow.
But a point i would like to bring up is why is a "3D" mix even relevant when electronic dance music is made for dancing, and the vast majority of the time is played in mono on a club system.
Also I believe it irrelevant that it is a DAW that seperates this "3D" feeling from a flat feeling. It's usually stereo enhancing and imaging techniques that bring this about. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nightshift
I would say check out Marcus Shossow.
But a point i would like to bring up is why is a "3D" mix even relevant when electronic dance music is made for dancing, and the vast majority of the time is played in mono on a club system.
Also I believe it irrelevant that it is a DAW that seperates this "3D" feeling from a flat feeling. It's usually stereo enhancing and imaging techniques that bring this about. |
3D might not be the right word...
The Thrill track sounds much more transparent and clear. It's like listening to a track with a black background that makes sounds stand out, compared to a gray background that blends in more with the sounds. If there is enough low level noise introduced into a mix through non-neutral events, than it'll start to reduce the perception of low level sounds like reverb and low level parts of a sound's tail. |
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| Nightshift |
I'm not sure 100% sure but im pretty sure when it comes to low-level noise, that has more to do with rendering/dithering.
I for one always render 32-bit/24-bit wave output, whichever doesnt even give the option for the DAW do the dithering at all. Then I open in Goldwave and dither/limit with Waves plugins.
But I have uploaded a sample of a track im working on in ableton and would like your opinion if this sounds flat to you?
Keep in mind the mixing isnt all there yet though: [[ LINK REMOVED ]]
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| Lolo |
ok I'll remain serious this time.
I happen to do entire mixdowns into Live 8.
Live 8 works extremely well on minimal (not the genre!!) stuff with its own plugins because you don't have to think about headroom. The summing is therefore not affected at all, well, most of the time.
What happens then when mixing 30+ stereo tracks? It sounds like the summing, so the process that send all your audio routing to Out 1-2/Master, is having hard times. It sounds a little bit blurred
I tried changing the warp (warp must stay on unfortunately to prevent timing issues, big big flaw in Live for me), more latency, less track gain everywhere. No help.
Important to mention that many other sequencers nowadays have the same problem. Logic 9 included.
Well, it's coming from the loss of punch of real-time features such as time stretching and pitch shifting, that greatly affect the transients. When rendering a sum of channels using those features, especially offline (which is what everyone does, including me) well the mix gets blurred easily. Of course I can easily blame Live's plugins also, especially the eq and comp devices. Not that they suck, but of course they won't help fixing.
There are a few workarounds:
1°) Systematically render all of your tracks, and/or freeze/flatten them, THEN consolidate them again. This way your cpu doesn't have to deal with internal 32 bit to 16 bit conversion and the resulting file is 16 or 24 bit depending on your audio settings. I mean everything. Instruments, audio tracks and co, that make use of plug-ins. If you have sidechain on some channels, move those plugins to a free channel, freeze-flatten, consolidate, and put the sidechain plugins (gate, filter, compressor) on top of that. Or record in realtime using Live's routing features.
2°) Don't leave time-stretched or pitch-shifted audio clips at different tempi into your arrangement, CONSOLIDATE again and again and again.
3°) If possible use other eq's and compressors than Live's. PSP, Nomad Factory, whatever. Unless this is exactly the kind of sound you want and/or ou have no other choice. I suggest then that you freeze flatten those too!
4°) Don't use audio channels for your transient dependent drums such as kick/snare and co. Use Simpler/Sampler/Drum Rack instead.
5°) If you want to compress heavily on drums for example. Take the comp, group it (ctrl or apple-g), add a second chain in the chain mixer of your group, mix the heavily compressed signal with the uncompressed signal. That's called parallel compression
That explains why Logic up to 8 doesn't have this problem.
1) No time stretching on the fly.
2) Better internal plug-ins for compression and eq. Even in Express.
Logic 9 features Flextime. Good one, but again it'll affect the transients! So use it, and then render the resulting sound.
If you follow those few rules, no single sequencer will dictate the way your stuff sounds. |
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| Acton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lolo
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Some good tips there Laurent  . |
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