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What is making this kick so thumpy? =] (pg. 4)
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
I agree, quite frankly.
I've made many posts on this forum in many different threads, including Robby's, to the effect of "you need to rethink your overall approach / change your perspective" without turning the discussion into a complete show. I don't think it's so much to ask for a little tact. Posts such as "STFU with your crap" or "retarded Robby thread" really don't add anything to the discussion - there's such a thing as constructive criticism.
Robby didn't say what kind of monitors he had - or maybe I just wasn't paying attention. Either way, if he does have garbage monitors it could very well be part of the problem. One time I didn't realize I had accidentally turned my sub off, and finished about 3/4 of a track that turned out like absolute ; I had to redo the whole thing when I realized my mistake. I'm not saying everybody needs a pair of $5000 monitors, but at the cheapest end of the spectrum, like say, a laptop speaker, it can really hinder your ability to make a track sound halfway decent.
Now can we please get back to talking about claps. |
You're right I just said Alesis, they're the MK2.http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEM1MK2
I've read a lot of complaints about the low end in particular, but if the low end was under represented, (which is the main complaint) I should technically be having issues with my bass regions being too loud on other systems.
I'm actually having the opposite problem which is why I'm really confused. But would rather not get into it again.
I obviously just need more experience but I do feel like I've tried everything and mixes still don't translate like they should so idk. |
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| Aesthetic |
They're fine.. start A/B'ing your tunes with pro tracks to see where yours lacks.. eventually you won't have to anymore.. Are these new monitors? Mine took me a while to get used to, but now I feel like I know 'em well.
If your music is coming out too low, they must be colouring that in particular.. learn the beast. Tame it Robby Tame it.. slide it in there mate
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
You're right I just said Alesis, they're the MK2.http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEM1MK2
I've read a lot of complaints about the low end in particular, but if the low end was under represented, (which is the main complaint) I should technically be having issues with my bass regions being too loud on other systems.
I'm actually having the opposite problem which is why I'm really confused. But would rather not get into it again.
I obviously just need more experience but I do feel like I've tried everything and mixes still don't translate like they should so idk. |
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| Subtle |
| Yay, same as mine, used them for about 5 years now. Really like them, although i dont know any better. |
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| kitphillips |
| quote: | Originally posted by Beatflux
You guys need to give Robbie a break.
If he doesn't have treatment, then that can really up his listening experience.
I don't know how people can blow 10 grand on synths and not spend a single penny on treatment. |
Well he just blew a couple of grand on synths (virus) without spending any on treatment, hence why he's not getting a break from me.
Also, I know lots of people who monitor on less than alesis and do fine, so I think its a matter of making excuses for his own inexperience. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Well he just blew a couple of grand on synths (virus) without spending any on treatment, hence why he's not getting a break from me.
Also, I know lots of people who monitor on less than alesis and do fine, so I think its a matter of making excuses for his own inexperience. |
I thought he only spent 1k on it.
I think he knows better now... |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Well he just blew a couple of grand on synths (virus) without spending any on treatment, hence why he's not getting a break from me.
Also, I know lots of people who monitor on less than alesis and do fine, so I think its a matter of making excuses for his own inexperience. |
Yeh it was a thousand. But what you're still missing is the fact that you're blaming my "experience" but just basically telling me to buy something else (treatment). So thats still not relevant to my experience, its relevant to having more tools which is what you're entire first argument was about.(not blaming tools).
So great, I won't blame my speakers anymore, I'll blame the fact that my rooms not treated. Thanks. |
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| Nightshift |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Yeh it was a thousand. But what you're still missing is the fact that you're blaming my "experience" but just basically telling me to buy something else (treatment). So thats still not relevant to my experience, its relevant to having more tools which is what you're entire first argument was about.(not blaming tools).
So great, I won't blame my speakers anymore, I'll blame the fact that my rooms not treated. Thanks. |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
I mean I can't argue with him but room wise I'm working in EXTREMELY limited circumstances.
The shape of the room itself is half cathedral, and I can't place my speakers on the down slope so its technically on the wrong side of the room which I heard is bad enough.
And to add, its so tiny and narrow my monitors can't be placed a proper distance apart. So I do accept responsiblity, but theres only so much I can do as I have no bigger rooms to put my .
Is there anyway to test a room just to see what kind of artifacts are being added to a sound? I imagine I'd have to place the speakers a specific way and use a mic to record some sort of calibrated sample from the center of the room or something? If anyone knows where I can get more info on this it would help. I just remember when I was reading about room treatment a while ago I came to the conclusion I was basically fvcked and there wasn't much I could do. I am rather curious though if theres anyway to test my room just to see how bad it is. |
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| kitphillips |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Yeh it was a thousand. But what you're still missing is the fact that you're blaming my "experience" but just basically telling me to buy something else (treatment). So thats still not relevant to my experience, its relevant to having more tools which is what you're entire first argument was about.(not blaming tools).
So great, I won't blame my speakers anymore, I'll blame the fact that my rooms not treated. Thanks. |
I'm saying if you had more experience you'd know better where to allocate your money.
As it is, you have more money than sense, and you don't spend any time at all considering what you really need, you just see some pretty box adn say "That will make my music better!" and buy it on a whim.
Why don't you make a resolution to buy nothing at all for a year, and spend all the time you spend on the internet GASing producing instead. |
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| Eric J |
OK, look, here is the deal. What they are trying to tell you is that there is a certain order of importance when it comes to purchasing gear. When you are starting out, it is advisable to sink your money into the things that will benefit you the most. Outboard hardware is about 5th on that list, so when you sink a grand into the Virus, you are essentially diminishing the impact of such a piece because you are ignoring the other 4, more important, pieces of gear considered "essential".
So, in order of importance, here are the things you should be sinking your money into:
- Good Computer. Most producers, especially in the beginning are producing entirely inside their computer. So it is important to have a good, fast, reliable machine that you can produce on with a minimum of problems.
In addition, do not use your production environment as a place to try out new technologies. Don't upgrade to the latest OS the minute it comes out, don't install beta drivers or questionable software, and don't use that machine for anything other than producing. Keep it lean and mean. Get a system up that is stable, fast and works well, then leave it be until there is a compelling reason to upgrade.
- Good Monitors. This is essential because without good monitoring, nothing else matters. If you can't properly hear what you are doing, how can you know what is wrong? It doesn't matter how much outboard hardware or other gadgets you have if you cannot use it in the context of a finished product.
You need decent monitors, especially in the beginning, because they will allow you to hear what is going on with your mix, thereby improving the overall product. As you get better and your ears get trained, then you can start to hear problems even on substandard monitoring, but it is essential to get your ears trained properly first.
- Good Audio Interface. This goes hand in hand with good monitors. The audio interface needs to be able to translate the digital 1's and 0's out of your computer into an analog signal that you can hear, and it needs to do this reliably and with a minimum of coloration.
Cheaper audio interfaces use crappy components which introduce artifacts into the audio and do not give you a clear picture of what you are actually hearing. This becomes doubly important when you start recording outboard instruments and the converters nee to be able to convert the analog signals coming out of your hardware into digital bits as accurately as possible.
- Acoustic Treatment. This is important because most rooms in houses and apartments are acoustically bad. Sure you may get used to it after some time, but what happens here is that sound waves bounce around your room in such a way that it makes certain areas of the frequency spectrum seem louder or quieter than they actually are. You, in turn, will compensate for this by raising or lowering the volume of such frequencies. Often this is done without you being conscious of it. Then you go and listen to your mix in a car or on another stereo and you notice the bass is too loud or quiet, or the highs are too harsh. it sounded fine in your studio, so why does it sound like crap in my car? Because your room is boosting or cutting certain frequencies simply by virtue of its acoustic properties.
Room treatment is designed to make your rom as acoustically "flat" as possible, so that what you hear coming our of yor monitors in your studio is "true". Then when you mix in your studio, you can take it to your car or stereo and it sounds pretty much the same as it did in your studio. That is the ultimate goal. The problem is that it can be hard to see how treatment can make a difference until you experience it, however, once you work in a treated room, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.
This one can be tricky because every room is different and many factors go into the "sound" of a room including shape, size and the materials used in constructing your walls, ceilings and floors. Proper treatment requires that you consult with someone who knows acoustics and you'll need to provide measurements of your room so they can design a proper solution. One size does not fit all. The good news is that you can usually get really good treatment for less than $1,000. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference it can make. I'd take $1,000 monitors in a properly treatment room over $3,000 monitors in an untreated room any day. It can make decent monitors sound good and good monitors sound great.
- Other stuff. Once you have the above items covered, you can then turn your attention to things like outboard hardware and such. The good news is that if you have the above items covered, then purchases like outboard synths actually provide much more bang for the buck because you can use them more effectively.
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eric J
OK, look, here is the deal. What they are trying to tell you is that there is a certain order of importance when it comes to purchasing gear. When you are starting out, it is advisable to sink your money into the things that will benefit you the most. Outboard hardware is about 5th on that list, so when you sink a grand into the Virus, you are essentially diminishing the impact of such a piece because you are ignoring the other 4, more important, pieces of gear considered "essential".
So, in order of importance, here are the things you should be sinking your money into:
- Good Computer. Most producers, especially in the beginning are producing entirely inside their computer. So it is important to have a good, fast, reliable machine that you can produce on with a minimum of problems.
In addition, do not use your production environment as a place to try out new technologies. Don't upgrade to the latest OS the minute it comes out, don't install beta drivers or questionable software, and don't use that machine for anything other than producing. Keep it lean and mean. Get a system up that is stable, fast and works well, then leave it be until there is a compelling reason to upgrade.
- Good Monitors. This is essential because without good monitoring, nothing else matters. If you can't properly hear what you are doing, how can you know what is wrong? It doesn't matter how much outboard hardware or other gadgets you have if you cannot use it in the context of a finished product.
You need decent monitors, especially in the beginning, because they will allow you to hear what is going on with your mix, thereby improving the overall product. As you get better and your ears get trained, then you can start to hear problems even on substandard monitoring, but it is essential to get your ears trained properly first.
- Good Audio Interface. This goes hand in hand with good monitors. The audio interface needs to be able to translate the digital 1's and 0's out of your computer into an analog signal that you can hear, and it needs to do this reliably and with a minimum of coloration.
Cheaper audio interfaces use crappy components which introduce artifacts into the audio and do not give you a clear picture of what you are actually hearing. This becomes doubly important when you start recording outboard instruments and the converters nee to be able to convert the analog signals coming out of your hardware into digital bits as accurately as possible.
- Acoustic Treatment. This is important because most rooms in houses and apartments are acoustically bad. Sure you may get used to it after some time, but what happens here is that sound waves bounce around your room in such a way that it makes certain areas of the frequency spectrum seem louder or quieter than they actually are. You, in turn, will compensate for this by raising or lowering the volume of such frequencies. Often this is done without you being conscious of it. Then you go and listen to your mix in a car or on another stereo and you notice the bass is too loud or quiet, or the highs are too harsh. it sounded fine in your studio, so why does it sound like crap in my car? Because your room is boosting or cutting certain frequencies simply by virtue of its acoustic properties.
Room treatment is designed to make your rom as acoustically "flat" as possible, so that what you hear coming our of yor monitors in your studio is "true". Then when you mix in your studio, you can take it to your car or stereo and it sounds pretty much the same as it did in your studio. That is the ultimate goal. The problem is that it can be hard to see how treatment can make a difference until you experience it, however, once you work in a treated room, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.
This one can be tricky because every room is different and many factors go into the "sound" of a room including shape, size and the materials used in constructing your walls, ceilings and floors. Proper treatment requires that you consult with someone who knows acoustics and you'll need to provide measurements of your room so they can design a proper solution. One size does not fit all. The good news is that you can usually get really good treatment for less than $1,000. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference it can make. I'd take $1,000 monitors in a properly treatment room over $3,000 monitors in an untreated room any day. It can make decent monitors sound good and good monitors sound great.
- Other stuff. Once you have the above items covered, you can then turn your attention to things like outboard hardware and such. The good news is that if you have the above items covered, then purchases like outboard synths actually provide much more bang for the buck because you can use them more effectively.
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THIS.
I would like to add that the the need for treatment increases exponentially as the quality of the signal chain increases.
Off topic however Robby, I don't think I've ever had a go at you (and I'm not going to start), but you've got to stop this endless stream of conciousness posting. Every thread you start would be so much simpler if you just thought it out first before hitting enter. I can honestly say that is the case for 80% of your questions.
Don't get me wrong I think it;s commendable that you ask, and sometimes some good discussion comes of it, but so much is just uneccesary if you think about what you already know and then combine that with common sense. |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
Thanks Eric I appreciate it.
All I can say is I do absolutely intend on getting everything I need. But I still for the life of me can't understand that some of those things are as important as people here want me to believe.
If you put a truely talented pro in a studio, hes still going to have the ability to make a sound that 95% of avg producers with proper monitors can't. Thats because a good skillset is always going to bypass the minimal gains proper monitors and a treated room afford. You can say the gains aren't minimal, but compared to what a competent musician can accomplish alone, theres just no other way I can see it.
My whole first post was centered on the concept of technique. Kit came in here and told me to stop blaming my speakers, when my speakers were 1/100th of what my initial post was about. If I came here asking specific questions about TECHNIQUE, it should have been obvious to him that I ALREADY KNOW my technique could use work, as could anyones.
He basically came in and said "the sky is blue", well no , if he listened to my first post he would have noticed how redundant his original statement was. So I thank you for that list, but I still genuinely believe Kit is a moron.
I didn't want to turn this into a "lets go back to our abcs" thread. There are things competent musicians are doing RIGHT NOW that a large majority of avg producers aren't. I asked questions like whether or not people thought he was using compression/limiting on the kick because it didn't look like he was.
People came in and said he may be using a sub from vengeance and that he was most likely layering. I went and started layering subs from vengeance with low cut punchier kicks, and STILL his sound was thumpier. I know those subs have decay, that gives the kick a bigger feel, but there still remains a large variance between those subs and that sound imo.
THEN I noticed if you actually just play around with the pitch env on a lot of those subs, you can increase the thumpy feel 10 fold. I realize this is how kicks are made with sine waves, but had never thought doing it to a sub from vengeance.
Whatever the case, I came here asking another specific question, got tons of speculative comments, insults, and a good deal of information I'm not even sure is relevant (not talking about Erics list, Kits off topic antics somehow warranted that being relevant). At any rate, I learned a nice little tip once again on my own, with no real help from anyone.
I just can't stand the lack of motivation people here have towards sharing tips, or maybe they just don't really know much.
How many kick threads do we get and someone says "experiment and layer". Or, "set your compressor to these magic parameters". Yet I don't see a lot of real personalized technique on these forums from guys who have been doing this 10-15 years longer then I have. I don't mean to sound ungreatful, but with how much some of you appear to know, I always see the SAME pieces of advice being given, which are often so broad and general, that they almost mean nothing.
I know my speakers are far from perfect, but when I switched from crappy computer speakers to these current monitors, I didn't notice any massive change at all. I then got use to them over time, and even though I noticed a difference, it was STILL very minimal. Thats why I know when people say like "treat your room is will make a MASSIVE difference", they really just mean "its a small difference, but any improvement matters imo".
I just love how Kit made this all about my technique, and like I'm not blaming it, when the majority of my OP is ABOUT TECHNIQUE.
But obviously once again someone on this forum is just in a bad mood, but I'm the ignorant one. |
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