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Mixer Advice (pg. 2)
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| orTofønChiLd |
| Allen & Heath |
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| BradMiller |
| Good point on the record outs, listening to your own sets (especially when starting out) is a very important thing to do! |
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| StarSoprano426 |
| quote: | Originally posted by djkatmaus
A big plus for me would be the Ecler mixer. Balanced XLR outputs. |
| quote: | Originally posted by terrytutone
If youre set on picking one of these three i would go with the xone just because it offers more options in terms of outputs. You'll notice that it has booth and master outputs. It also has the pre-master record output and an aux out.
The Pioneer only has two stereo outputs.
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| quote: | Originally posted by miamitranceman
The only downside to the 400 is the lack of booth out/balanced outputs.
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| quote: | Originally posted by BradMiller
Good point on the record outs, listening to your own sets (especially when starting out) is a very important thing to do! |
When you guys are talking about outputs, it doesn't refer to having 2 or 3 channels right? (I'm a total newbie just starting out :)) How would one go about recording? So if I had a mixer with 3 channels I could hook up the computer to the 3rd one? That's what someone told me. What would that allow me to do? Play music from the computer through the mixer? Would that allow me to record with the computer? Or do I need to hook it up to the outputs?
Can you guys tell me more about outputs, what they are, and why they're important? I do see in the photo that the Xone has much more going on with outputs. And as far as the Ecler, djkatmaus, you were saying that it has balanced xlr outputs. What does that mean? Does the Xone have that too?
From what everyone's been saying I'm leaning towards the Xone. |
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| StarSoprano426 |
Here is a picture I found of the back of the Ecler
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| miamitranceman |
Basically, on the DJM-400, you don't have a separate "booth" output. What that means is the volume you set the mixer to record at has to be the same as what volume you're playing out live. With a booth out, you can connect speakers to that and separate control their volume from the recoding volume, which comes in handy if, for example, you are in an apt. and have to keep the volume lower. (ie: you turn down the booth but turn up the master out that you're recording from). It's also handy for when you play out somewhere. You can have separate vol. controls for you monitoring speakers (which face you) and the master out speakers that are facing the crowd.
As for balanced/unbalanced, long story short, the sound quality is much better on balanced connections. You rarely get any interference like you do with unbalanced RCA connections (the simple red and white connections). You can also run cables a lot further on a balanced connection than on an unbalanced setup.
As I said, for a starter setup, I loved my 400, but in retrospect, the things I mentioned above are considerations I would've liked to have known about.
I'd prob narrow it down to the Xone or Ecler. The DJDeals deal on the Xone 32 is pretty much a steal but that mixer has been out for years now. It's the oldest of the bunch. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the Nuo 3.0 is much more "modern" having only come out about a year ago. |
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| palm |
| oh the eqs on ecler is abit weird, especialy the mid-its very large frek-scale, i didnt like it. the xone has nicer eqs imo, and the filter which is awesome! no doubt what u should do. |
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| DJ RANN |
The DJM400 is one of the most overpriced mixers ever to hit the market. Two channel, poor soundquality and incredibly limiting output connectivity....al this for just $500.
The ecler is OK, decent build and sound quality but palm is spot on about the mid eq - the crossover spread is massive, meaning the hi and low are small - you loose or boost so much of the spectrum just using the mid eq.
The allen and heath is a solid, great sounding mixer - I can't think of any mixer at $299 that has ever been better. |
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| djkatmaus |
| quote: | Originally posted by StarSoprano426
When you guys are talking about outputs, it doesn't refer to having 2 or 3 channels right? (I'm a total newbie just starting out :)) How would one go about recording? So if I had a mixer with 3 channels I could hook up the computer to the 3rd one? That's what someone told me. What would that allow me to do? Play music from the computer through the mixer? Would that allow me to record with the computer? Or do I need to hook it up to the outputs?
Can you guys tell me more about outputs, what they are, and why they're important? I do see in the photo that the Xone has much more going on with outputs. And as far as the Ecler, djkatmaus, you were saying that it has balanced xlr outputs. What does that mean? Does the Xone have that too?
From what everyone's been saying I'm leaning towards the Xone. |
The inputs which are your faders that slide north and south are your inputs. Each input channel has two inputs. One being phono the other being line typically. At the top of the channel there is some sort of switch, that enables you to access either one of the inputs. These inputs are then bussed to your main outs. The benefits of having three channels means you have a spare. Let's say for an example, your starting out with a pair of cd players. This is called a two channel set up. One cd player on one channel, and the other on the second channel. Now lets say you want to add a third cd player or whatever. You have a third channel available. For a computer or DVS set up it works the same way. For a Serato set up, you have four signals coming off of the interface. Two phono and two line. Your two phono would input into the phono inputs of channel one and two, and the your two line inputs would connect to the line inputs of channel one and two. The third channel is completely open for whatever you want. Some DVS DJ's will sometimes connect a cd player, minidisc player or another turntable to this channel. The reason. To use as a back up. Its very rare for a DVS or a computer to crash but sometimes they do. If your computer were to lock up, you can fade over to that cd player play a long song or something which will keep the dance floor going while you reboot your computer. Another advantage, well for me at least, Me and my DJ partner spin in different ways. He uses Serato I use cds and vinyl, and on rare occasions I may bring out my Torq set up. When we change over, typically we'll throw in a cd or something to keep it going until we are changed over.
Now onto outputs.
Having multiple outputs benefits you in several ways. One output can be sent to the PA, the other can be used as a record feed, or as a separate feed to a different set of speakers. Say the ones aimed at the smoking patio. Having more is just better overall, having less just sucks.
The difference between a balanced line and an unbalanced is, Balanced is a two conductor set up plus ground. Typical connectors are XLR, or 1/4" Tip Ring Sleeve. On an XLR, Pin 2 is hot or +. Pin 3 is common or -. Pin 1 is your ground or drain. 1/4 TRS, Tip would be +, Ring is common -, Sleeve is your ground or drain.
On an unbalanced line RCA, you have a single conductor. We call these Tip Sleeve. Tip being your positive +, Sleeve is ground and if there's a third wire present, which would be your common, gets bonded with ground. Making it unbalanced. An RCA signal runs at -10db, while in a balanced set up, signal is +4db.
Why is this important? Simple, Running a balanced output from your dj mixer will not only give you a better signal, but it will also eliminate our little friend known as buzz or hum. Hum/buzz is typically produced by what is called ground loops. Either too many grounds between gear or not enough. Also how the gear is wired internally plays a factor into it.
Professional sound systems run at +4db (decibels). If you output a signal via RCA's, the signal is -10db. When I run a DJ through any of my sound systems and the output is RCA, I will input those outputs through a pair of direct boxes. Direct boxes are used to input instruments and/or a line level source into a PA. DJ mixer outputs are considered line level outputs. By doing this you're bringing the ouput level of the dj mixer, up to a level where a sound reinforcement console can input it, and you're also making it a balanced input to the PA. Also another cool feature on a direct box is the ground lift switch. Almost everytime I plug in a DJ mixer that has RCA outs it hums. To eliminate I flip the ground lift on one of the direct boxes. Or in some cases I flip both. Just depends.
Now that I've probably confused you with the physics of it all:), back to your original question. Both the Xone, and Ecler, have balanced outputs. The Pioneer doesn't. Not a big deal either way, They all do the samething and get the signal out to where it needs to go. I just wanted to point out the differences between outputs.
Truthfully if I had to choose myself, I'm gonna go with the Allen & Heath for several reasons. One, A&H have been making mixing consoles for the pro audio side for years. The technology in their DJ products is the exact same technology found in their pro line. Two, I have mixed on several A&H live consoles in my career, and they're built like tanks and have never failed. Third, as a mixer, I prefer the warmth of the British sound over the electronic sound you find on other products.
Honestly though, we can all sit here, ramble about our likes and dislikes, what's good what's bad, and so on. But ultimately its your decision. You gonna have to pick the one you feel the most comfortable. You'll know which one is yours. Think of it like buying a car, what fits your style, which one do you groove with the most? Most of all don't worry about the price tag. I've found time and time again, the lower priced stuff is typically the better stuff. In most cases your paying for the name and not the quality. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by djkatmaus
The difference between a balanced line and an unbalanced is, Balanced is a two conductor set up plus ground. Typical connectors are XLR, or 1/4" Tip Ring Sleeve. On an XLR, Pin 2 is hot or +. Pin 3 is common or -. Pin 1 is your ground or drain. 1/4 TRS, Tip would be +, Ring is common -, Sleeve is your ground or drain.
On an unbalanced line RCA, you have a single conductor. We call these Tip Sleeve. Tip being your positive +, Sleeve is ground and if there's a third wire present, which would be your common, gets bonded with ground. Making it unbalanced. An RCA signal runs at -10db, while in a balanced set up, signal is +4db.
Why is this important? Simple, Running a balanced output from your dj mixer will not only give you a better signal, but it will also eliminate our little friend known as buzz or hum. Hum/buzz is typically produced by what is called ground loops. Either too many grounds between gear or not enough. Also how the gear is wired internally plays a factor into it.
Professional sound systems run at +4db (decibels). If you output a signal via RCA's, the signal is -10db. When I run a DJ through any of my sound systems and the output is RCA, I will input those outputs through a pair of direct boxes. Direct boxes are used to input instruments and/or a line level source into a PA. DJ mixer outputs are considered line level outputs. By doing this you're bringing the ouput level of the dj mixer, up to a level where a sound reinforcement console can input it, and you're also making it a balanced input to the PA. Also another cool feature on a direct box is the ground lift switch. Almost everytime I plug in a DJ mixer that has RCA outs it hums. To eliminate I flip the ground lift on one of the direct boxes. Or in some cases I flip both. Just depends.
Now that I've probably confused you with the physics of it all:), back to your original question. Both the Xone, and Ecler, have balanced outputs. The Pioneer doesn't. Not a big deal either way, I just wanted to explain the differences between the various connectors.
Truthfully if I had to choose myself, I'm gonna go with the Allen & Heath for several reasons. One, A&H have been making mixing consoles for the pro audio side for years. The technology in their DJ products is the exact same technology found in their pro line. Two, I have mixed on several A&H live consoles in career, and they're built like tanks. Third, as a mixer, I prefer the warmth of the British sound over the electronic sound you find on other products.
Honestly though, we can all sit here, ramble about our likes and dislikes, what's good what's bad, and so on. But ultimately its your decision. You gonna have to pick the one you feel the most comfortable. You'll know which one is yours. Think of it like buying a car, what fits your style, which one do you groove with? |
Really informative and good advice for the OP, but a couple of things:
If you're going to say db and the qualify it by saying "decibels" after it, then at least give the full definition as "db" by itself is completely meaningless.
it's like saying "that car is going 7 miles per".
per what? Per train? Per day? Per person?
Also, balanced setups are not +4dbvu. They can just as likely be -10dbvu. There is no standard to balanced audio. With +4dbvu you are *more likely* to find balanced connections but the same can not be conversely inferred with systems running at -10dbvu.
(i.e. balanced or not). So to clarify, you know with a RCA connector you are 99.9% certain that's it's -10dbvu but just because it's got an XLR or TRS jack doesn't mean it's +4dbvu - it could just as easily be -10dbvu.
Sorry, I don't mean to split hairs and I know you were trying to keep it simple on purpose. |
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| djkatmaus |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Also, balanced setups are not +4dbvu. They can just as likely be -10dbvu. There is no standard to balanced audio. With +4dbvu you are *more likely* to find balanced connections but the same can not be conversely inferred with systems running at -10dbvu.
(i.e. balanced or not). So to clarify, you know with a RCA connector you are 99.9% certain that's it's -10dbvu but just because it's got an XLR or TRS jack doesn't mean it's +4dbvu - it could just as easily be -10dbvu.
Sorry, I don't mean to split hairs and I know you were trying to keep it simple on purpose. |
Oh no your not splitting hairs at all. Funny thing is, I'm trying to remember this stuff myself as I was typing. I haven't talked about this in a long time.
What is going to determine -10 or +4 is where your inputting the signal. Typically outputs on a cd player such as a 1000 have a -10dbu output. Your connecting to a DJ mixer which takes -10dbu. Line level sources typically transmit audio at -10dbu unless it's specified differently. Mic levels transmit at +4dbu. If I take a DJ mixer output which is unbalanced @ -10, and plug it into a +4 input on a mixing console, the signal will most likely be louder. That's because that particular input is at mic level and not line level. If I input that signal to another input on the console, which would be the line level input, it should stay same. But it all depends on that input. Some consoles you can select between -10 or +4 dbu line level. RCA connectors are pretty standard. -10dbu is typical for RCA, but not always. This has been a debate for years in the pro world. Some countries make somethings standard and others don't or they do something completely different. Kinda like the Pin 2/Pin 3 hot thing. Anywho, RCA is considered a consumer grade connector that was introduced into the pro world after the 1/4 and the XLR. If you look on the back of your home stereo, all of your inputs and outputs are usually RCA. On mine they have -10dbu. Which is typical because it's consumer grade. Yes you can have an RCA transmit at +4. It depends on how the manufacturer built that piece of gear and it will specify that in the manual. Another way you can tell is by hooking up a meter. That is truely the only way you can tell what you dbu is.
On my DJ rig, everything is wired with Canare L-4E6S Cable. Including the turntables. It's a twisted pair with shield cable. All of my RCA to RCA connections are wired with the twisted pair soldered to the tip while the drain is soldered to the shield of the connector. I find this type of wiring gives me the best resistance to RF and TV noises and eliminates buzz. For my outputs coming out of the DJ mixer, (which is a Denon 1500), I can output in two ways. I can take the XLR out or I can take the RCA outs. The RCA's are unbalanced, so to get them back balanced, I take the twisted pair which are soldered to the tip of the RCA and I break them out. So one of the pairs goes to Pin 2 and the other goes to Pin 3 and the shield goes to Pin 1. With this orientation I've made it balanced. However the dbu hasn't changed. That will be determined by what input I plug it into on the other console. On the Denon both of my outputs are line level. Not sure what dbu though. Once again, I wouldn't be able to determine it until I input it someplace or I meter it since its not labeled. I'm gonna assume it's -10dbu.
As far as TRS or XLR, the source will determine the dbu. On my Midas analog consoles the TRS inputs state they're -10dbu. The two XLR inputs are different as well. One is +4 mic level, the other is +4 line level. It all goes back to how it was designed. The reason for the XLR line level is because Midas expects your gonna be inputting pro line gear. But everything is different, like you said nothing has ever been standardized.
Wow, my brain is hurting. lol. :crazy: |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by djkatmaus
Oh no your not splitting hairs at all. Funny thing is, I'm trying to remember this stuff myself as I was typing. I haven't talked about this in a long time.
What is going to determine -10 or +4 is where your inputting the signal. Typically outputs on a cd player such as a 1000 have a -10dbu output. Your connecting to a DJ mixer which takes -10dbu. Line level sources typically transmit audio at -10dbu unless it's specified differently. Mic levels transmit at +4dbu. If I take a DJ mixer output which is unbalanced @ -10, and plug it into a +4 input on a mixing console, the signal will most likely be louder. That's because that particular input is at mic level and not line level. If I input that signal to another input on the console, which would be the line level input, it should stay same. But it all depends on that input. Some consoles you can select between -10 or +4 dbu line level. RCA connectors are pretty standard. -10dbu is typical for RCA, but not always. This has been a debate for years in the pro world. Some countries make somethings standard and others don't or they do something completely different. Kinda like the Pin 2/Pin 3 hot thing. Anywho, RCA is considered a consumer grade connector that was introduced into the pro world after the 1/4 and the XLR. If you look on the back of your home stereo, all of your inputs and outputs are usually RCA. On mine they have -10dbu. Which is typical because it's consumer grade. Yes you can have an RCA transmit at +4. It depends on how the manufacturer built that piece of gear and it will specify that in the manual. Another way you can tell is by hooking up a meter. That is truely the only way you can tell what you dbu is.
On my DJ rig, everything is wired with Canare L-4E6S Cable. Including the turntables. It's a twisted pair with shield cable. All of my RCA to RCA connections are wired with the twisted pair soldered to the tip while the drain is soldered to the shield of the connector. I find this type of wiring gives me the best resistance to RF and TV noises and eliminates buzz. For my outputs coming out of the DJ mixer, (which is a Denon 1500), I can output in two ways. I can take the XLR out or I can take the RCA outs. The RCA's are unbalanced, so to get them back balanced, I take the twisted pair which are soldered to the tip of the RCA and I break them out. So one of the pairs goes to Pin 2 and the other goes to Pin 3 and the shield goes to Pin 1. With this orientation I've made it balanced. However the dbu hasn't changed. That will be determined by what input I plug it into on the other console. On the Denon both of my outputs are line level. Not sure what dbu though. Once again, I wouldn't be able to determine it until I input it someplace or I meter it since its not labeled. I'm gonna assume it's -10dbu.
As far as TRS or XLR, the source will determine the dbu. On my Midas analog consoles the TRS inputs state they're -10dbu. The two XLR inputs are different as well. One is +4 mic level, the other is +4 line level. It all goes back to how it was designed. The reason for the XLR line level is because Midas expects your gonna be inputting pro line gear. But everything is different, like you said nothing has ever been standardized.
Wow, my brain is hurting. lol. :crazy: |
That's mainly true but -10/+4 can also be determined by the output stage (selectable on many interfaces and even my DJ mixer), not just the input so correct gain staging (especially with live sound rigs and mixing consumer and pro gear) is crucial.
What you're talking about with the RCA wiring is pseudo-balancing - it's not actually "back to balanced", just has very similar RF protection (true balanced requires the phase reference cancellation method which is impossible without discrete conductors and grounds) and that's the only way to get true EMI protection.
Also, bear in mind that a pseudo balanced line will still atennuate (like any unbalanced signal) over distance (30ft), unlike balanced lines which can go for to around 300ft before attenuation becomes a problem.
Also, pseudo balancing is directional to the extent that joined ground should be at the output end.
You're probably right about the CD players - I've only ever seen a couple of +4 CD players and they were studio grade rack mount. I think they had switches to stop annoying staging issues, but everything else is nearly always -10.
And thinking about it, the midas has +4 line inputs becuase they assume that you might use a pro mic pre or external channel strip to input there so they give you the correct gain stage setup.
midas desks are great - haven't touched one for years though sadly. |
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| djkatmaus |
On the RCA's, it's not a true balance but more of a fake or wannabe balance. I just like to wire RCA's that way. The least resistance the better. Plus, I've never been a fan of RCA connectors.
Pseudo wiring doesn't change the level at all. Especially with RCA because it's mono, and all your doing is splitting the mono into two mono's basically.
At my studio and even in my playback racks at our sound company, I use strictly the Denon DN-C680 CD players which are +4. I have a couple 630's as well, but we modified those to be +4.
As far the interfaces, I'm still new to the DJ ones. So I dunno what all they have on them. And for the DJ mixers, none of mine are selectable.
As I was typing my last post I was looking at one of our XL-4's, so I was just reading what was on the back. |
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