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What American tax dollars really pay for
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| Max Thomson |
http://collateralmurder.org/
every day that the united states military and intelligence community operates in Iraq is a disgrace to humanity and an obstacle to our evolutionary, technological, and spiritual progresss. this video proves it.
1984 is 2010.
discuss. |
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| Dupz |
I've always been one to despise how the US leans towards a cowardly style of warfare - fighting from the sky. Too often has this resulted in the deaths of multiple innocents, only to be brushed off as 'collateral'.
I remember that this type of thing was a daily occurrence in the aerial bombing of Serbia and Montenegro in 1999. Great to see the US's lack of humanity still holds true...
Yeah, I know, there will be those of you that will roll your eyes and say "blah blah blah, that's war for your.. people always die in wars.. etc etc etc".
That's all nice and easy to say from the comfort of your cumstained computer chair. Get your arse up, book a one way ticket to Iraq/Afghanistan with the family and tell me what the you think of collateral damage |
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| daft_max |
I went on CNN.. reading thru some of the comments.. this one stood out the most
"I'd trade a few arab men's lives for an american soldier's any day"
sakes. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dupz
I've always been one to despise how the US leans towards a cowardly style of warfare - fighting from the sky. Too often has this resulted in the deaths of multiple innocents, only to be brushed off as 'collateral'.
I remember that this type of thing was a daily occurrence in the aerial bombing of Serbia and Montenegro in 1999. Great to see the US's lack of humanity still holds true...
Yeah, I know, there will be those of you that will roll your eyes and say "blah blah blah, that's war for your.. people always die in wars.. etc etc etc".
That's all nice and easy to say from the comfort of your cumstained computer chair. Get your arse up, book a one way ticket to Iraq/Afghanistan with the family and tell me what the you think of collateral damage |
Tis an ugly thing, war. It is unfortunate that innocent civilians are killed. However, the U.S. strategy has generally been one that tries to minimize civilian casualties (as compared to others that embrace the targeting and killing of them as a tactic to weaken their enemy's resolve.)
George Patton once said, (paraphrasing): "War is not about dying for your country. War is about making some other sonnofabitch die for his country." And that ****** Sherman once said "War is hell." Indeed it is.
But thanks for the propaganda. |
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| Sunsnail |
| I think Dupz is right. The US military are pussies for using planes. |
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| Moral Hazard |
I think Yohan did an excellent job responding to this video in the TOTA fourms so I'm just going to copy his post...
| quote: | Originally posted by Yohan
Self defence (of you and any friendlies) and perceived hostile intent.
It is a terrible video to watch. And I feel terrible for those that died in this incident.
Good job on whoever edited this video to ensure it is unbiased as possible *sarcasm*
There are a lot of unanswered questions from this vid. Keep in mind that if you're going to make a judgement on these two pilots, you should do so from their point of view, not using what other info and facts that you know.
So you have two Apaches flying in an area. First question would be, what is the tactical situation? Are there any friendly forces in the area? Is this neighbourhood known to be full of enemies? Has there been contact between friendly and enemy forces in the period of time before the video starts?
None of these questions can be answered from the video. If any of my questions are answerd yes, then the pilots would definitely be more looking for hostiles. (And it did sound like there were some Bradley elements in that area, but don't know exactly how far away)
You must understand that one bad judgement call and one of their buddies goes home in a casket because they didn't do their job properly. Adding all the adrenaline and happening all around them, not like us sitting calm in front of a computer, yeah it's harder to make critical decisions in split second notice, when lives may be at stake.
So, the next question would be, did these pilots take reasonable precautions to positively identify their targets as hostiles.
It's not just whether these guys had weapons (or perceived weapons) in their hands; it's also exactly what they were doing.
If there was indeed a firefight prior to this incident, normal reaction for civillians would be to FLEE AND HIDE from the battlefield.
If you run TOWARDS the battle, the pilots would have every reason to believe that you are showing hostile intent, because that's just not what normal people do.
Yes, these dudes are journalists and they are just trying to get a story and to their job, but think as those pilots. You don't know these guys are journalists because these journalists probably didn't tell the army that they are going to be in the area. (Otherwise, these Reuters guys would be travelling with an army unit)
These guys holding as far as the pilots can tell RPG/AK47s, look like hostiles (because the enemy wears same clothing as civillians) and moving towards the battle. (well, as far as we can tell)
What is your conclusion?
As for the van, similar story. It's good on this dude to try to help out a fellow dude, but if there is a battle, stay the hell away from that area. For all the pilots knew, since they already IDed their targets as insurgents, anyone helping these guys are also insurgents. Whether there were children or not, well, small heads barely seen through shadows of the van and helluva lot going on taking up attention of the pilots.
As for the attitude and tone of the pilots, of course they are going to feel good about themselves. As far as they knew, they just whacked a bunch of insurgents who were going to try to kill a bunch of their buddies.
As for the quotes by army officers regarding the incident, I'm going to bet they only had statements and the vids from the incidents to go by, and did not know that there were journalists in the area. Information is rarely complete in battlefield. So as far as these army guys are concerned, they just whacked a bunch of bad guys.
These pilots may be just couple of cowboys wanting to up their kill counts. But you dont know. I don't know. We don't have all the information. So, my opinion is that yes, we can discuss what happened here based upon what we know, but we should also be more aware of what we DONT know and make our judgement accordingly. |
BTW, Yohan ships out for Afganistan this week. |
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| Scottaculous |
Dick Cheney used collateral damage defense when he shot a man in the face while on duty in a quail farm. "War is hell", he rationalized. More like imagined, for he never served in the armed forces. :tongue3
Serious edit:
War makes man do terrible things. It seems wrong three years later and thousands of miles away, but if you're in the middle of it, it's kill or be killed. No rules in war. Which is why starting a war should be the absolute last option. |
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| Max Thomson |
I say the troops, the us military, every last mother****** that goes over there "defending freedom" deserves to have their head blown off for what we are doing to these people. I know a lot of people who sign up for the military aren't bad people necessarily and just need the money for college or whatever, but in this age of freedom of information, you have absolutely no excuse to take part in something this so obviously evil, no matter how much our country approves of it or how many medals you're awarded.
And I don't care what some brainwashed us soldier said about this, we should've never gone over there in the first place and anyone who volunteers to take part in such horrific imperialism deserves to die, end of story.
why do they hate us? |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Max Thomson
why do they hate us? |
They're jealous. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Max Thomson
we should've never gone over there in the first place |
agreed.
| quote: | | and anyone who volunteers to take part in such horrific imperialism deserves to die, end of story. |
Way out of line. Soldiers are people doing their jobs, end of story. If you want to blame someone then blame the politicians that make the decisions and; ultimately, the voters who put those politicians into office and/or keep them there. Really, governments make decisions, soldiers simply do their jobs. If you have a problem with the job the soldiers are doing then you need to change your government. |
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| The17sss |
I love the crazy knee jerk reaction to that Wikileaks movie. "The US Military are savage killers! ARRRRGH!!!" It's already been established that the video you're referring to was edited like crazy, and the release of the official CENTCOM report in its entirety proves it. I know it's embarrassing to admit you've been duped by a known anti-military propoganda organization, and you'll just attack me instead (and probably won't read the real report) but whatever. Read the truth if you dare.
http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/...vestigation.pdf |
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| Comrade Stalin |
| Blame the politicians who sent those pilots to kill in the first place. |
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