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Why Are My Percs Total Crap?!!?
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| alanzo |
Percussion in EDM is a funny thing. You don't notice it unless it's not there. It adds so much to a tune, without noticeably adding anything at all. So insignificant yet so important. It's something that has always plagued my music making. I just can't seem to get something I like (aside from the kick).
It's something I don't like to spend a lot of time on so I use loops typically. Sometimes chopped up but I tend to hurt more than help when chopping. I'll typically use vengeance loops (ugh).
Any percussion tips? Are loops all that bad? DO NOT START A "DO IT YOURSELF, LOSER" argument. I don't care what you have to say in that regard, I just care about the music. When it comes to percussion, I don't give a if someone else does it for me. |
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| EddieZilker |
I've phoned a lot of my percs in. I'll take a bongo or a conga set and dump epic amounts of echo on it and then do rolls or just screw with a pattern until it sounds right, but, generally, I don't spend a whole lot of time with them.
Sometimes, like for a clap I had in one song, I set up an echo so that the taps pan slightly as the feedback on it, progresses.
Funny thing, is that's kind of where I'm at on the song, I'm working on, now. The next steps are to add hi-hats, and then some percussion to sort of tie it together. |
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| alanzo |
| I kind of feel like I'm just using bad samples. I typically can get better results when I don't use Vengeance. Anyone else feel the same? |
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| mfitterer1 |
If I remember you make uplifting stuff. In the percs with that less is more. The higher the bpm the more each note gets carried through. Also in line with that, simpler patterns seem to be more en-trancing. In uplifting trance (IMO) usually most of the time is spent by people listening to a great melody or a really driving bassline/chords. So you want to support that. In progressive the groove is of utmost importance because when things are slowed down you want a little bit more variation in the pattern to offset the bpm of the track; allowing it to still be danceable despite slower.
My personal suggestion is make your own sounds for your perc. It's a lot more fun going through samples and creating a unique loop than wasting time cutting and re-sizing loops to match your track. |
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| alanzo |
| quote: | Originally posted by mfitterer1
My personal suggestion is make your own sounds for your perc. It's a lot more fun going through samples and creating a unique loop than wasting time cutting and re-sizing loops to match your track. |
That takes too long and I can never get what I want out of it, anyway. |
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| Eric J |
I find the Vengeance percs very lacking. In fact, I used to use the Vengeance samples almost exclusively, but for the last couple of tracks, I have found a few sample packs from Loopmasters that are much better suited for the type of stuff I am making. The Battery 3 standard library has tons of useful percs, especially in the ethnic, cuban and african drum kits.
The thing about percs is that they don't really have much place in typical trance, and isn't that what you make for the most part? There is so much other stuff going on in trance that it can be hard to make them stand out or have them really add anything.
If you want to hear really good use of percs, then the tech house, tribal house and techno genres are where you want to look. Those genres are much more about groove and rhythm as opposed to the melodic qualities of trance.
Most of my success with getting my own perc loops to work is with clever use of automation and tying velocity and aftertouch to things like envelope parameters. Swing also helps out a great deal when properly applied. You need to try and add that type of subtle movement to perc loops in order to get that groove.
If you are making very "full" music such as trance, then it becomes much more difficult to make the grooves stand out because of all the other stuff going on. This is also typically why most trance tends to have a more straightforward drum pattern, so as not to take away from the melodic elements of the trance.
I know you didnt want to make your own, but honestly, using premade loops is difficult to pull off successfully because the loops are never quite right for your particular track. This may also be part of your frustration as to why you are having trouble with it. |
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| alanzo |
Thanks for the great post, eric.
Yeah, I'm still making melodic uplifting trance.
Maybe I'm just over thinking all this .... I'll try relying less on loops, though. But is it common to use a loop as a, sort of, filler and then put a couple one-shot samples on top? |
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| Kysora |
| quote: | Originally posted by alanzo
Any percussion tips? Are loops all that bad? DO NOT START A "DO IT YOURSELF, LOSER" argument. I don't care what you have to say in that regard, I just care about the music. When it comes to percussion, I don't give a if someone else does it for me. |
I'm a melodic/uplifting trancer myself and I'm in the same predicament of sorts as you, in my music the last thing I want the listener to focus on is the percussion, unless I add an interesting element or two meant to do just that. Everything else to me is just filling the rhythm and upper frequencies and vengeance loops do just that.
You really need to ask yourself if building your own percussion tracks is going to be worth the amount of effort put into it, or even if the effort will yield a result as good as the ones you already have from the loops. If all you're worried about is artistic integrity, again, original loops aren't going to stand out any more than vengeance ones if your music doesn't focus on them to begin with.
I've never heard your music but just based on what I've seen from you here, you seem to know enough about EDM to fill up a track without relying on those percussion loops for anything but the upper freqs and basic rhythmic structure, in which case you won't gain anything by making your own loops anyway. |
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| Eric J |
| quote: | Originally posted by alanzo
But is it common to use a loop as a, sort of, filler and then put a couple one-shot samples on top? |
I have never had much success doing this, but in general, if you are going to do it, then the less complex the loop, the better. For example, I'll find a lot of use for a simple shaker loop to add a little subtle movement to a static programmed drum pattern.
Making your own loops with percussion is really about creating movement, so you should be thinking in terms of primary rhythms backed up with counter rhythms. A lot of that movement can be done with subtle pieces that are barely audible, yet add a distinct groove to your loop. I might have 1 or 2 hat tracks that are obvious stand outs, but I may also have 3 more in the background that you can barely hear, but add a counter rhythm to give the drum pattern more groove.
If you listen to a lot of tech house, you'll notice that a popular technique is to use sine-based kick drums or low toms to add a rhythmic underpinning to a straight 4-4 beat. In many cases, this can also serve as a bass line, where the drums hits make the bass line and there is no actual synth bass line. This is a very popular technique because it works so damn well on the dance floor.
Honestly, my recommendation to you is to listen to a few tech-y tracks and really study how they do it. I think that you'll find that once you start practicing with it, you an really add a lot to your music and you may find less of a need to add as many melodic elements. A lot of the tech-trance borrows these elements from tech house while still retaining some stripped down elements of full on trance. |
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| sako487 |
| I would put a snare, hi hat, closed hi hat, some bongos here and there and maybe one noticeable percussion that makes it stand out. Its all about taking time to put in the effects, then your percussion starts to shine. (and what eric said lol) |
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| alanzo |
Alright, I'll try abandoning loops all together.
BUT, has anyone been able to do this well in Cubase? I kind of feel limited using cubase when it comes to percussion. It does have the new Groove Agent One plugin, but it's really nothing more than a sampler w/ an accompanying sequencer -- both are not particularly easy to use.
The best thing about the new Cubase features is the "groove" settings. Is that particularly useful in uplifting trance? |
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| gr8ape |
| quote: | Originally posted by alanzo
Alright, I'll try abandoning loops all together.
BUT, has anyone been able to do this well in Cubase? I kind of feel limited using cubase when it comes to percussion. It does have the new Groove Agent One plugin, but it's really nothing more than a sampler w/ an accompanying sequencer -- both are not particularly easy to use.
The best thing about the new Cubase features is the "groove" settings. Is that particularly useful in uplifting trance? |
why limited?
i simply arrange my samples on audio tracks...
samples taken from my library of years surfing the internet for samples |
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