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Toronto sees another cash cow. Idling law to be 60 seconds and no weather exemptions (pg. 2)
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Special K
Polluting the air to ! |
Since 2 minutes of idling at a drive-thru bothers you, I'm curious to know if you're one of the people who supports HOV lanes, bike lane expansions, speed bumps, tearing up the Gardiner, and various other "improvements" that generally result in at least 15 cumulative minutes of unnecessary idling per trip? |
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| rabbitjoker |
Preface: I do not necessarily agree with this bylaw (due to poor/impossible enforcement). Although I have a car, I do not drive very often (maybe 50 km/week averaged over the year). For the most part I use transit + foot mobility to get around the city.
Observation: This year, walking around town, I have been more aware of exhaust and the general pollutants from vehicles than ever before (no idea why).
Comment: I think the effort/intent (reducing emissions) would be much better served by limiting vehicle output (esp. commercial vehicles inc. buses) vs. ticketing people waiting with the car idle. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Since 2 minutes of idling at a drive-thru bothers you, I'm curious to know if you're one of the people who supports HOV lanes, bike lane expansions, speed bumps, tearing up the Gardiner, and various other "improvements" that generally result in at least 15 cumulative minutes of unnecessary idling per trip? |
Zing! |
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| DeleteFromUsers |
IC motors are "dirtiest" just after starting because the catalytic converter hasn't heated up, thus doesn't work properly/at all. They should ban the 1st minute of idling and allow the 2nd and 3rd!
The idle speed for an IC engine is nearly the lowest RPM before the engine stalls (thus least fuel consumption/pollution creation).
Idling really isn't that bad. It also allows an engine to heat up before placing "excessive" stress on wear components which are designed to run at elevated temperatures. Running at low temp can cause premature wear and a reduction in the engine's overall efficiency over the long term.
We warm up our 80,000w machine for 30min before beginning useful work, longer in the winter (your hair dryer and microwave are about 1,500w max). How's that for idling?
Diesel engines have trouble starting cold. I doubt it'd be a great idea to let them cool down in Feb without a block heater or in a heated garage.
*facepalm* |
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| ChemEnhanced |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
I agree... id love to see new bands... but the city wouldnt allow them to play with all the bans in place LOL!
But seriously though, youd rather see new bans rather than tax??? Do you also think fidel is a good president??
You forgot one thing in the equation. Cut wasteful spending and then you dont have to do either! |
yeah..my bad LOL
I agree that cutting the wasteful spending is the ideal solution but you and I both know the city isn't going to do that. |
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| E2EK1EL |
Watch how everyone is gonna start billing the city of Toronto for Engine & Tranny Swaps due to the new law.
Your nuts to drive any car, that's been sitting outside for hrs w/ freezing temp. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
yeah..my bad LOL
I agree that cutting the wasteful spending is the ideal solution but you and I both know the city isn't going to do that. |
it would if people voted accordingly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| jsibilin |
taken from toronto star:
| quote: |
Man fuming over drive-through pollution
Test slams bad air outside coffee shops, fast-food joints; but Tim's sees it through different window
Developer Dave De Sylva poses at a Markham Tim Hortons, June 13, 2008.
COLIN O'CONNOR/TORONTO STAR
Related
Speak Out: Drive-through pollution
DAVE DE SYLVA SAYS. . .
The average idling time observed:
3.43 minutes at Tim Hortons
2.61 minutes at McDonald's
5.61 minutes at Wendy's
Projected over a year at all 29 drive-throughs in Markham, this adds up to 21,759,152 minutes of estimated total idling time, using 435,185 litres of fuel and releasing 118 tonnes of carbon dioxide. To offset that emission, 5,844 trees would have to be planted.
TIM HORTONS SAYS. . .
Its analysis of carbon dioxide emissions, conducted by RWDI Air Inc., shows:
26.5 kilograms per hour
of carbon dioxide emissions at a drive-through location in the morning rush hour.
35.1 kilograms per hour
at a non-drive-through with a small, congested parking lot.
30.5 kilograms per hour
at a non-drive-through with a larger parking lot.
John Spears
city hall bureau
Dave de Sylva has nothing against coffee and burger restaurants: "I sign all kinds of real estate deals at Tim Hortons," says the Markham developer.
It's the drive-through service he can't stand.
De Sylva hates drive-through queues so much that he decided to calculate the gas burned and tonnes of carbon dioxide spewed at Markham's drive-through establishments.
His campaign against them started a few years ago, when he noticed that many coffee shops paid more attention to car driver customers at the window than customers who walked through the door.
It annoyed him, and he decided to do some analysis, starting with plotting the location of all of Markham's drive-ins: Burger and doughnut restaurants, banks, drug stores – anything with a drive-through window. He found 29.
Then in April and May he dispatched employee Alison Christou to do the painstaking work of counting cars at sample drive-through lines and measuring their progress with a stop-watch.
"I was amazed at what I found," says de Sylva.
By his calculation, which was based on a formula used by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the cars lined up at Markham's 29 drive-through establishments uselessly burn 435,185 litres of gasoline a year. That's enough to let an average car circle the globe 85 times.
As for greenhouse gas emissions, de Sylva calculates the damage at 118 tonnes of carbon dioxide and other pollutants.
"It's my atmosphere as much as anybody else's," says de Sylva.
His objective on drive-throughs is simple: "I think they should stop them."
De Sylva acknowledges that for many of his three-plus decades as a property developer, he built low-density suburban subdivisions, the kind that spawned the car culture that led to drive-through service.
He has now turned to developing higher density, multiple-unit buildings with features like geothermal heating, rooftop solar arrays and wind-powered water heaters.
Nick Javor, a spokesperson for Tim Hortons, says de Sylva's analysis is flawed.
Tim Hortons hired its own consulting firm, RWDI AIR Inc., to calculate emissions for cars in the drive-through lane and the parking lot at its own stores.
That study – which compared the emissions caused by drive-through idling compared with those produced when a car crawls through a parking lot, manoeuvres into a space, stops, restarts and crawls back out – concluded there is "no air quality benefit to the public from eliminating drive-throughs."
It found that hourly emissions for locations with drive-throughs were lower than for those with only parking lots; it was the same result with small congested lots and larger free-flowing ones.
In any case, Javor says, customers want drive-throughs. Tim Hortons outlets with drive-through service do 40 to 50 per cent of their business through the window, he adds.
De Sylva says he's sent his analysis to Markham and several other Greater Toronto municipalities, but hasn't had any response.
Markham Councillor Erin Shapero says she's aware of de Sylva's report and sympathetic to his concerns.
"We have enough" drive-throughs, she agreed. "We don't need any more."
Markham staff have been asked to draft a policy on drive-throughs, which Shapero expects to be brought forward this fall.
Toronto already has a policy: Drive-throughs aren't banned, but they must comply with rules on pedestrian access, screening, noise barriers and lane configurations that can be prohibitive in many neighbourhoods.
Mississauga also approved new guidelines earlier this year.
Councillor George Carlson, who heads Mississauga's environment committee, says the city took an "unenthusiastic view of drive-ins" in setting the rules.
Restrictions were needed to prevent them from blossoming everywhere, Carlson said:
"Out where I live on the edge of town, some people would use their cars to drive through a funeral home if they could."
His concerns are social as well as environmental: "I think drive-throughs tend to make suburban life even more isolated and less interactive with your neighbours."
Carlson says it's important not to focus too single-mindedly on drive-throughs as fuel wasters.
"If you added up all the unnecessary stop signs and delayed red lights that we have throughout the system, you'd probably be burning up a hundred times more fuel than drive-throughs."
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| mute79 |
| if you've ever walked out of union st. to front st on a weekday morning, you'd be disguisted too.. there are ~100 cabbies idling all along front, non-stop.. ffs, isn't the point of taking a cab to cut down on pollution and discourage you to drive your own car? and i don't get why NONE of these cabbies are hybrids? makes no sense whatsoever |
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| ChemEnhanced |
| quote: | Originally posted by mute79
if you've ever walked out of union st. to front st on a weekday morning, you'd be disguisted too.. there are ~100 cabbies idling all along front, non-stop.. ffs, isn't the point of taking a cab to cut down on pollution and discourage you to drive your own car? and i don't get why NONE of these cabbies are hybrids? makes no sense whatsoever |
you honestly believe that's why people take cabs |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by DeleteFromUsers
IC motors are "dirtiest" just after starting because the catalytic converter hasn't heated up, thus doesn't work properly/at all. They should ban the 1st minute of idling and allow the 2nd and 3rd!
The idle speed for an IC engine is nearly the lowest RPM before the engine stalls (thus least fuel consumption/pollution creation).
Idling really isn't that bad. It also allows an engine to heat up before placing "excessive" stress on wear components which are designed to run at elevated temperatures. Running at low temp can cause premature wear and a reduction in the engine's overall efficiency over the long term.
We warm up our 80,000w machine for 30min before beginning useful work, longer in the winter (your hair dryer and microwave are about 1,500w max). How's that for idling?
Diesel engines have trouble starting cold. I doubt it'd be a great idea to let them cool down in Feb without a block heater or in a heated garage.
*facepalm* |
Thats quite right.
My perspective - imagine middle of January. Its minus 10. Your car is all but snowed out with ice on the windshield. ONE MINUTE of warming up WILL NOT remove that snow and ice, FAR FROM IT. As a matter of fact, the heater will not even be ready within 1 minute. And you wont be able to drive without seeing , would you? This by-law is ing retarded. There are too many damn laws and by-laws, its ridiculous. And many of them are dumb and/or repetitive.
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| mute79 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
you honestly believe that's why people take cabs |
the idea w/ cabs is primarily to cut down on traffic congestion (ie. the new york 2008 pricing model where there would have been a charge to drive into manhattan, for all vehicles except cabs, emerg. vehicles, buses, etc) |
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