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Why do people say things like "I'm mixing at -4db"? (pg. 2)
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| Rodri Santos |
| If you plan to master leave it a -6 if you are not going to release it or know how to master leave it at -2 or so, this way you can mix it without clipping and reverb and filters won't get out the meters. |
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| Nick Cenik |
| quote: | Originally posted by tehlord
That's why everything I do sounds so excellent. |
Haha nice! |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rodri Santos
If you plan to master leave it a -6 if you are not going to release it or know how to master leave it at -2 or so, this way you can mix it without clipping and reverb and filters won't get out the meters. |
Not great advice at all. There are no rules when it comes to this.
If you're going to give it to a mastering engineer then ask them what they want and give them that.
You're also not clarifying what you mean by -6.
-6 what? DBFS is probably what you mean. But peak or RMS?
However, if the mastering is all in the box I have no idea why they need given to them at -6db. In a purely digital mastering system (and lets face it, most EDM tracks don't get mastered with shadow hills compressors) there is no need for the headroom allowance before 0dbfs as 32bit floating environment.
If you were to give them a file that does not clip but has been mixed perfectly to just below 0dbfs, the mastering engineer has so many options to make the track -6dbfs if that's what they want, including just pulling down the track faders or doing a gain change.
Why you should have to mix at a target of -6dbfs, and in turn screwing your relative signal chain gain staging is beyond me.
That is of course unless you have already calibrated you monitors and signal chain to accommodate that reference which I seriously doubt anyone on here has. |
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| chick |
Isn't the same if you mix the track to 0db and then lower the volume for 3db before you send it to master (if you're even sending it)?
Can someone confirm this please? |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by chick
Isn't the same if you mix the track to 0db and then lower the volume for 3db before you send it to master (if you're even sending it)?
Can someone confirm this please? |
The simply answer is yes.
I calibrate my system to the K system and mix to as close 0dbfs as possible.
If someone then wants it at -3dbfs then I'll do a gain change on the final rendered file.
But just be careful about the terminology: are you saying -3dbfs is the highest peak or the RMS figure? |
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| chick |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
But just be careful about the terminology: are you saying -3dbfs is the highest peak or the RMS figure? |
Not saying anything because I don't know this theoretical stuff. I don't even know what you are asking me.
I just wanted to know if I could just lower the master for few Db in case I ever make a song that will be worth sending to mastering :) |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by chick
Not saying anything because I don't know this theoretical stuff. I don't even know what you are asking me.
I just wanted to know if I could just lower the master for few Db in case I ever make a song that will be worth sending to mastering :) |
Then don't ever listen to people telling you that your mix needs to be at -3db.
Just mix to as loud as you can without clipping - any mastering engineer should be able work with 0db. Some may prefer -3 or -6 but nay who say they can't wok at 0db are not worth hiring. And again, if they then tell you that it must be -3db or -6db, take the final file and render a gain change appropriately. |
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| EddieZilker |
I'm mixing at +120db SPL RMS.
On my headphones :o |
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| Mad for Brad |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Then don't ever listen to people telling you that your mix needs to be at -3db.
Just mix to as loud as you can without clipping - any mastering engineer should be able work with 0db. Some may prefer -3 or -6 but nay who say they can't wok at 0db are not worth hiring. And again, if they then tell you that it must be -3db or -6db, take the final file and render a gain change appropriately. |
is it really worth the risk ? Seems like an awful strategy when you can just lower your target goal and not suffer any degradation. 24 bit has such a large dynamic range that those dB's shaved from the top seem kinda pointless especially with loud music such as EDM. |
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| kitphillips |
^^^
Its worth the risk because you get more resolution on your meters the higher you mix. There's very little visual difference between -60 and -70, but a whole lot between -3 and -1. So it makes sense in terms of being able to see what your mix is doing to just mix at a certain high level and then pull everything down immediately before exporting.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Not great advice at all. There are no rules when it comes to this.
If you're going to give it to a mastering engineer then ask them what they want and give them that.
You're also not clarifying what you mean by -6.
-6 what? DBFS is probably what you mean. But peak or RMS?
However, if the mastering is all in the box I have no idea why they need given to them at -6db. In a purely digital mastering system (and lets face it, most EDM tracks don't get mastered with shadow hills compressors) there is no need for the headroom allowance before 0dbfs as 32bit floating environment.
If you were to give them a file that does not clip but has been mixed perfectly to just below 0dbfs, the mastering engineer has so many options to make the track -6dbfs if that's what they want, including just pulling down the track faders or doing a gain change.
Why you should have to mix at a target of -6dbfs, and in turn screwing your relative signal chain gain staging is beyond me.
That is of course unless you have already calibrated you monitors and signal chain to accommodate that reference which I seriously doubt anyone on here has. |
I was going to come in here and say exactly this. How many times do we need to have this same thread??
And honestly, all these debates are a bit ridiculous considering the quality of most of the productions in EDM. I can count on one hand the number of producers out there who actually have the mixing skills to even be worried about these sorts of tiny, highly academic nitpicks. |
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| G-Con |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
^^^
Its worth the risk because you get more resolution on your meters the higher you mix. There's very little visual difference between -60 and -70, but a whole lot between -3 and -1. So it makes sense in terms of being able to see what your mix is doing to just mix at a certain high level and then pull everything down immediately before exporting.
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So just to clarify: Up to now I have been mixing aiming to leave 5 or 6 db of headroom for mastering. But instead I can just mix as close to 0 as possible and then at the end, just stick at a gain utility on the master and turn that down to -6?
What about rendering the file as I have originally mixed it (close to 0) and then taking the rendered file, turning it down -6 and then rendering that? Or would rendering twice cause potential problems? |
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| kitphillips |
There are a few caveats regarding what I said that you should be aware of.
Some plugins and hosts do clip if you put a signal above 0 dbfs into them, usually these are the ones that aren't 64/32 bit capable. So you could have clipping within a plugin on a channel. This is rarely an issue now since most plugins leave additional headroom for clipping signals, so it doesn't matter if you send a clipping signal into them. If you do have a plugin that clips, you can put a gain which doesn't clip before it and bring the signal down before putting it into that plugin. Channels themselves in 32 bit hosts won't clip either.
As far as rendering twice, I wouldn't recommend it. Generally, when you render, you put dither on your master channel, dithering twice is bad (in theory). Also, you don't GAIN any quality if the file is already 16 bit, althoug you would gain quality if you have a 24 bit file at -6, then re render it at 0 dbfs in 16 bit because you'd be using up more of the dynamic range.
So to answer question one: if you have no plugins that are going to clip getting hit with signals above 0 db, then YES you can just turn down your master. You basically have completely freedom in gain staging AFAIK.
For your second question: I don't know why you would do this, but if you haven't dithered at any point, then you can theoretically do this. But you'll lose some quality because you won't be using up the dynamic range as well as you would have been if you'd rendered it at 0 db. The quality losses will be less at 24 bit because it has more resolution, and almost nil at 32 bit.
Again, all of this is highly academic, and I doubt anyone can hear the difference either way. |
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