hallucinogen
astral projection
koxbox
electric universe
x-dream
cosmosis
laughing buddha
etnica
BT
chris cowie
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by G-Con
DJ RANN, as this is a thread about the top trance ARTISTS of all time, I fail to see why you are convinced that oakenfold should be right up there.
Take away his GU comps, his essential mixes, his DJ'ing around the world, his influence in the early days and focus purely on his productions.
Is he really one of the greatest trance ARTISTS of all time?
Well I don't think you can purely extrapolate one from the other becuase he has been an artist (in the pure production meaning) alongside being a DJ his whole career. Fine, it's difficult to call a DJ an artist but oakenfold plays a lot of his own productions and collabs or his own label material. He provides a lot of the content (one way or another) that he plays as a DJ.
But even if we do say forget the 40 or so best selling and well respected mix compilations he's done since 1994 (right up to the new Goa comp coming out in a few months). Do you have any idea the amount of major or milestone remixes that man did? Then forget that he was one half of grace, or much he shaped trance as it is known today through his label Perfecto. What about the dozen or so production names he put major releases out on? Then there's the film scores that he's done, which arguably were electronic and trance influenced. Honestly I could keep going on but I don't want to come across like some fan boy which I assure you I'm not - I don't even like 99% of the tripe called trance these days.
I don't really understand why people assume he's also not trance anymore. I saw him a year ago in Vegas and honestly he played better than the other guys there that night and It was what I would call trance (with a bit of prog thrown in).Sure he cashed in and made some terrible commercial records during his career, especially the latter parts, but so has every major "trance artist" you can name. At least he got there first. IMO, if you're going to sell out, at least be the original. All the others saw what he did and thought I want a piece of that.
I don't think he's the greatest, but I think you have have to put him up there towards the top because whether you like it not he formed trance in to what it was and is, more so than anyone else and I just can't see anyone else who has had that much influence or done all of the things he's done as an artist :conf:
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
I don't think he's the greatest, but I think you have have to put him up there towards the top because whether you like it not he formed trance in to what it was and is, more so than anyone else and I just can't see anyone else who has had that much influence or done all of the things he's done as an artist :conf:
No he ing didn't! Christ. Aren't you the same guy who claimed that progressive house wasn't invented until years after trance?
Trance formed in Germany in the very early 90s, by people like Dance 2 Trance, Jam & Spoon, Oliver Lieb, Cosmic Baby and Paul Van Dyk. We're talking 1990 here. Oakenfold was ing about with the Happy Mondays at that time.
It's ludicrous that you criticise people for nominating Paul Van Dyk in this thread, when he was one of the original pioneers. The stuff he was making on MFS between 1990 and 1997 was some of the best, most pure trance music ever made. PVD helped invent this ing sound. So what if he didn't "break through" until 1998?
Your problem is that you seem to think this should be all about popularity and success. Argumentum ad populum. It isn't. It's about artistic quality as it should always be. Oakenfold sold a lot of records and played massive gigs, but that doesn't mean he invented or formed anything, and it doesn't make him the best artist or DJ. He did what he always did, whether it was acid house, goa or drum 'n bass, and leaped on something that was already there and marketed and sold the out of it.
In artistic terms, Oakenfold is a ing joke. He can't even beatmatch for more than four bars! The mixing on even his most legendary compilations is appalling, including the ones where he used ProTools. He had to do Stalinist cover-ups on "live" Essential Mix broadcasts because the real live shows were full of elementary technical errors.
Oh, and you don't know what "extrapolate" means.
Timber
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No he ing didn't! Christ. Aren't you the same guy who claimed that progressive house wasn't invented until years after trance?
Trance formed in Germany in the very early 90s, by people like Dance 2 Trance, Jam & Spoon, Oliver Lieb, Cosmic Baby and Paul Van Dyk. We're talking 1990 here. Oakenfold was ing about with the Happy Mondays at that time.
It's ludicrous that you criticise people for nominating Paul Van Dyk in this thread, when he was one of the original pioneers. The stuff he was making on MFS between 1990 and 1997 was some of the best, most pure trance music ever made. PVD helped invent this ing sound. So what if he didn't "break through" until 1998?
Your problem is that you seem to think this should be all about popularity and success. Argumentum ad populum. It isn't. It's about artistic quality as it should always be. Oakenfold sold a lot of records and played massive gigs, but that doesn't mean he invented or formed anything, and it doesn't make him the best artist or DJ. He did what he always did, whether it was acid house, goa or drum 'n bass, and leaped on something that was already there and marketed and sold the out of it.
In artistic terms, Oakenfold is a ing joke. He can't even beatmatch for more than four bars! The mixing on even his most legendary compilations is appalling, including the ones where he used ProTools. He had to do Stalinist cover-ups on "live" Essential Mix broadcasts because the real live shows were full of elementary technical errors.
Oh, and you don't know what "extrapolate" means.
couldn't of put it better myself :)
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No he ing didn't! Christ. Aren't you the same guy who claimed that progressive house wasn't invented until years after trance?
No. Get your straight.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Trance formed in Germany in the very early 90s, by people like Dance 2 Trance, Jam & Spoon, Oliver Lieb, Cosmic Baby and Paul Van Dyk. We're talking 1990 here. Oakenfold was ing about with the Happy Mondays at that time.
It's ludicrous that you criticise people for nominating Paul Van Dyk in this thread, when he was one of the original pioneers. The stuff he was making on MFS between 1990 and 1997 was some of the best, most pure trance music ever made. PVD helped invent this ing sound. So what if he didn't "break through" until 1998?
Your problem is that you seem to think this should be all about popularity and success. Argumentum ad populum. It isn't. It's about artistic quality as it should always be. Oakenfold sold a lot of records and played massive gigs, but that doesn't mean he invented or formed anything, and it doesn't make him the best artist or DJ. He did what he always did, whether it was acid house, goa or drum 'n bass, and leaped on something that was already there and marketed and sold the out of it.
In artistic terms, Oakenfold is a ing joke. He can't even beatmatch for more than four bars! The mixing on even his most legendary compilations is appalling, including the ones where he used ProTools. He had to do Stalinist cover-ups on "live" Essential Mix broadcasts because the real live shows were full of elementary technical errors.
I was waiting for you to chime in, and I'm so glad you did because I love your bull. I used to think you knew your , but then I found out it's all just surface knowledge, all of it just read somewhere, and you actually experienced none of it for yourself first hand.....but by god you chat like you. While I was in the clubs during the 90's (and why I can actually talk about it with some confidence) you were still eating crayons in playschool.
You spout all this stuff (and a lot of other BS on TA) like you're the ing oracle and then you realase it's all just learned from either the wiki or last night a dj saved my life, or excstacy and the dance music culture etc.
And wigga, please don't quote latin on an EDM forum. Make you look like a prime twat. A bit too much of argumentum ad captandum for your audience (and you can look that up as well).
So no, it's not about popularity at all (otherwise I'd obviously be advocating Teisto or Van Burren which I haven't at any point), but "greatest" does infer success so I have factored that in that in of course. Success in this context, whether you like it or not, is also measure of how good you are, not just how many people like you.
As for PVD, yes, I actually bought of a lot of those early records and they were "basic" to be very polite about it - "purest trance evar?", I don't think so, not be a long shot. Have a listen to his "purest trance" classic "pump this party" from 1994. I do hope you're not talking about this sort of thing?
And this is where you fall down by just having a retropsective point of view. People frown upon the likes of Oakenfold because of what they did since in terms of commercialisation of the music but back then and until trance became the likes of Out of the Blue and Tiesto's Adagio for strings, Oakenfold was a popular for a reason - because people ing loved his music and his sets. Now it's cool to hate because things have clearly moved on but I'm not going to disregard the past, especially as you weren't there for it yourself.
And as for your Stalinist assertions (LOL :rolleyes: ), I heard Oakenfold play a dozen times int the 90s (most of the essential mixes like creamfields etc) and have to say I never heard him clang once. In fact his set at Creamfields was one of the better trance sets I've heard. Maybe I got lucky, and I know there was a big period (mid to late 2000's where he really stopped giving a ) but 12-0 is good enough for me to think he can mix and again, when I saw him in vegas last year he didn't up a mix then either.
Why I'm arguing with you I don't know. I think it's the self rituousness and god given self belief to which you post on here, which I have no time for, so don't bother responding, 'cos I won't.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Oh, and you don't know what "extrapolate" means.
Again, no. I used it exactly the way I wanted. *Sigh*
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
So no, it's not about popularity at all (otherwise I'd obviously be advocating Teisto or Van Burren which I haven't at any point), but "greatest" does infer success so I have factored that in that in of course. Success in this context, whether you like it or not, is also measure of how good you are, not just how many people like you.
You might want to go back to the start and scan the OP for any mention of the word "greatest". It actually says "top 10 of your best pure trance artists", so that throws your entire argument out of the window before it got started.
"Success" as you're using it (crowd sizes, records sold) is interchangeable with popularity, and jocks like Tiesto and Van Buuren are now just as successful as Oakenfold. Of course, acolytes of the Cult Of Oakey will always fall back on the fact he did these things a couple of years earlier than the modern contenders, as if that changes the issue at hand.
You can throw this predictable "I was there you were [limp-wristed insult about being a small child]" bluster at me all you want, but the fact you went to some parties, took a lot of drugs and read Mixmag in the 90s doesn't mean that claiming Paul Oakenfold formed trance as it is today will suddenly become the truth. The great thing about a retrospective point of view, especially when you do your research, is you're not hindered by a subjective and nostalgic memory of being a bystander. You can actually hear the views of lots of people who were there, and more importantly look up records and dates on Discogs and piece together an accurate picture.
I'd trust what a history professor has to say about World War 2 over how my grandmother remembers it.
quote:
As for PVD, yes, I actually bought of a lot of those early records and they were "basic" to be very polite about it - "purest trance evar?", I don't think so, not be a long shot. Have a listen to his "purest trance" classic "pump this party" from 1994. I do hope you're not talking about this sort of thing?
No, I'm talking about tracks like these:
Of course, you already know that PVD mixed the first ever commercially released trance compilation (http://www.discogs.com/Paul-van-Dyk.../release/437730) in 1993, when Oakenfold was busy cutting the edge by remixing "Things Can Only Get Better". But of course, that doesn't matter, because Oakenfold was playing stadiums supporting U2, right?
quote:
Again, no. I used it exactly the way I wanted. *Sigh*
The wrong way, then.
Light The Fuse
i could only get it down to 13 - and im sure there are more that are going to pop into my head as time goes by - but 13 seems like a good but unlucky number for a good but unlucky genre.
Oliver Lieb
Oakenfold
Cosmic Baby
BT
PvD
Sasha
J00f
Humate
Simon Berry
KLF
Airwave
Chicane
MIKE
i understand not all are known for being artists - some are more djs or record label guys than artists - but their labels and sets brought us heaps of tunes from artists i would consider 2nd tier best ever (breeder, tilt, rabbit in the moon, tiesto, age of love, nalin and kane, transa, three drives, dance to trance, salt tank etc etc.)
There are a couple of guys at the moment who are getting close i guess - carrying on the tradition if you will
Kay-D
Levan, Michael & Rivic
Perfect Stranger
Protoculture (hopefully he doesnt take this ASOT thing too far)
Hypnotic Duo
a few others time will tell
pozz
Marc Mitchell
Cass & Slide
Grant Collins (Excession)
Blue Planet Corporation (for producing Crystal and Lubiantia)
Cosmic Baby
Oliver Lieb
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You might want to go back to the start and scan the OP for any mention of the word "greatest". It actually says "top 10 of your best pure trance artists", so that throws your entire argument out of the window before it got started.
Oh really? The title is actually "The Top 10 Of Trance Artists Of All Times" and his OP is "best artist", which has the same level of ambiguity and subjectivity as greatest. Anyway, that not my beef and you know it, so don't try it. Especially as I also have the ability to read but I don't see the word "pure" that you just tried to sneak in there to better your feeble attempt at defense of negating the whole conversation.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
"Success" as you're using it (crowd sizes, records sold) is interchangeable with popularity, and jocks like Tiesto and Van Buuren are now just as successful as Oakenfold. Of course, acolytes of the Cult Of Oakey will always fall back on the fact he did these things a couple of years earlier than the modern contenders, as if that changes the issue at hand.
No, that's just you're blinkered and limited view of the word success. I hate to break it to you but there are millions of sucessful people out there that you've never heard of nor ever will, but by all accounts (except the shallowest meaning when referenced against fame) they are hugely successful. Thats' EXACTLY why I brought up popularity as a exclusion from the criteria via naming Tiesto and Burren, but you seem to have got bad at reading all of a sudden.
This again as demonstarted by the fact i told you several times I don't really like trance that much and not an Oakenfold fan in any form. I again explained earlier that it's because of this objectivity that I can say he did it before the other later pretenders to the scene. Perfect and very apt example is Tiesto. As he was just beginning to come to real mainstream fame in the late 90's Oakenfold decides to get in to film scoring and move to LA.
Oh snap. tiesto recently annouced he loves LA, wants to move here and get in to film scoring. Do I really need to go on about this particular aspect of certain people doing certain things considerably before others?
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You can throw this predictable "I was there you were [limp-wristed insult about being a small child]" bluster at me all you want, but the fact you went to some parties, took a lot of drugs and read Mixmag in the 90s doesn't mean that claiming Paul Oakenfold formed trance as it is today will suddenly become the truth. The great thing about a retrospective point of view, especially when you do your research, is you're not hindered by a subjective and nostalgic memory of being a bystander. You can actually hear the views of lots of people who were there, and more importantly look up records and dates on Discogs and piece together an accurate picture.I'd trust what a history professor has to say about World War 2 over how my grandmother remembers it.
It's not limp wristed, it's just the truth: The main point is I can have both a perspective from having actually experienced AND a retrospective view by comparing what I actually saw and felt to what others have said and felt about the same period, something that you simply cannot do. Your views, which are highly confident and self righteous in their fervent accounts of things, make me laugh because they are nothing BUT retrospective or at best second hand accounts, probably from people you never even met.Whatever you may think I have the ability to to both think about what I heard and felt then and balance that against what was recorded. (Again that's why I don't believe your assertions that Oakey can't mix live, because I've seen him AND I have those essential mixes from those gigs, which match what I witnessed while there).
Your argument cuts both ways I'm afraid - That's the thing with retrospections - they rely purely on collection of data (which can be easily manipulated) and the narrative, direction and conclusions can be easily set by the compiler. WW2 is a great example actually - the winners wrote the history books and so much detail I hear from my grandfather about what really happened through the eyes of someone that lived through it, will never be heard because people don't want to hear about the atrocities, or the things that went embarrassingly wrong etc.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Of course, you already know that PVD mixed the first ever commercially released trance compilation (http://www.discogs.com/Paul-van-Dyk.../release/437730) in 1993, when Oakenfold was busy cutting the edge by remixing "Things Can Only Get Better". But of course, that doesn't matter, because Oakenfold was playing stadiums supporting U2, right?
No at that time he'd remixed their entire album following their request to do so, which is kind of ironic that you bring up because a lot of PVD's work in recent years has been influenced by the sound of U2 (by his own admission). At that time as well as working on Journeys by DJ 5, which was a classic trance compilation featuring tracks he'd played while on a global tour the year prior.
I'll concede that my berating of PVD as a suggestion was indeed off the mark, but still I don't feel that PVD has achieved anything that Oakenfold hasn't (in objective terms), whether you look at type of gigs or size, compilations, body of work, money earned, fame, DJ rankings, label owndership, whatever.
This is weird - if anything I prefer PVD over Oakenfold so I don't get why I'm still arguing. I think you bring it out in me jack.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The wrong way, then.
No it's not and I just simply can't be bothered to explain why anymore.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Oh really? The title is actually "The Top 10 Of Trance Artists Of All Times" and his OP is "best artist", which has the same level of ambiguity and subjectivity as greatest. Anyway, that not my beef and you know it, so don't try it. Especially as I also have the ability to read but I don't see the word "pure" that you just tried to sneak in there to better your feeble attempt at defense of negating the whole conversation.
Arf. If you have the ability to read, then do as I told you and read the ing opening post:
quote:
Originally posted by epic-mind
YO! trance junkys...hello...this thread its for the best 10 trance artists not dj's because dj is another thing...please we want a top 10 of your best pure trance artists for all the times past-present and future...please just trance artists...not in house or dance...so... let's get start
Surely it isn't hard to extrapolate what he means. Not DJs, not businessmen. Producers. Musicians. Artists. The definition is right there in the OP. Now you tell me what Paul Oakenfold has done as an artist to shape trance. And don't start blathering about the blurred line between DJ and artist or any other back-tracking bull. You were the cocky prat who stepped into a thread without reading the question and started berating the answers people gave.
quote:
WW2 is a great example actually - the winners wrote the history books and so much detail I hear from my grandfather about what really happened through the eyes of someone that lived through it, will never be heard because people don't want to hear about the atrocities, or the things that went embarrassingly wrong etc.
Did you ever read Slaughterhouse Five while you were living history?
quote:
I'll concede that my berating of PVD as a suggestion was indeed off the mark, but still I don't feel that PVD has achieved anything that Oakenfold hasn't (in objective terms), whether you look at type of gigs or size, compilations, body of work, money earned, fame, DJ rankings, label owndership, whatever.
None of those things ing matter, do they? If this list was all about "objective terms" quantified as size of gigs, money earned and DJ rankings then everyone in this thread would write the same list, and it would be populated by the same names, most of whom have made a huge amount of ty music and helped spoil trance through their naked profiteering.
It should have been ing obvious that this was going to be a subjective discussion as soon as you read the word "artist". You know - because art is subjective? Instead you've come in here and literally said "Anyone not putting Oakenfold in the top is a ing idiot", your reasoning being that he was objectively the first DJ on the moon.
Now. Feel free to quietly run out of time for my God-given attitude and quietly off out of this thread like you originally claimed you were going to do.
Just because Oakenfold produced Southern Sun and the Swordfish album along with gaining popularity through his uber EM's doesn't mean he's the Leonardo Da Vinci of the Trance production arena or the whole scene for that matter. He WAS great as a DJ, but I don't find anything memorable about him as an artist.
Besides, Oliver Lieb (and a load of others) s all over him as a producer. Maybe not as a DJ, but you can see through most of his albums/mixes from 97 til about the early 2000's he has whored out almost half of his singles and remixes.
On the other hand, if Oakey wasn't a DJ, I'm pretty sure he'd be making an appearance on some cliched cooking show or either help paint Bono's nails behind the curtain on stage.
