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This should make ya think....... (pg. 3)
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by davinox
"I think therefore I am." - Descartes
Basically, the only thing you can prove 100% is your own existance. Everything else can be a mirage, an illusion, or whatnot, everything could be a lie, but the only thing you are a perfectly sure of is that YOU exist.
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I think that you (& Descartes) are somewhat right. However, you must acknowledge the existence of "something" besides your own existence. Because your conscious existence has no control of the inputs it gets (be they dreams, real or something else), and thus they must stem from some other source (that being a different side of your being, a Matrix-like computer etc) - or sources in the case of realism.:)
SportTrance: Almost all of the questions you are pondering about, falls into the philosophical categories of epistemology and ontology and litterally thousands of books have been written on the subjects. I recommend that you read some of them - not because your own conclusions are invalid or inferior, but because sometimes others have succeeded in pinpointing something you feel is correct but couldn't express yourself. At least I have benefitted from reading such books. |
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| discitelli |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnSmith
Everything can be explained by science, even the so called supernatural.
it's just that our feeble human minds don't quite get it all.
we are figuring out more and more each day though.
imagine back in the 1800's when some guy said that sickness was carried by little things called "germs" that we could't see.
everyone thought he was crazy, but he was right.
such is life. there are things going on you can not possibly begin to understand, but in time, we will figure them out.
and, pain can be detected. it is electrical impulses going up the nerves to the brain, where it is interpreted as pain.
i believe in spirtuality, the 6th sense, and all that.
it can all be explained with science though. for example in the bible, (if you believe in christianity), god was supposed to have destroyed 2 cities on either side of a river with "two balls of white fire"
geologists went back to that same area, and measured the radioactivity levels there. at approximately the same date as in the bible, there were twin nuclear explosions on either side of that river, long before that technology had been developed.
god exists, but he still follows the rules in other words.
kudos to the person quoting the "truth is a pathless land" passage. |
i have to disagree with you on this, i believe somethings will never be solved no matter how advanced or technological the human race becomes. For example, (this will blow your mind) what created our universe? you'd probably answered the big bang, ok but what created the big bang? You may say combustion of particles, ok but what created the combustioin of particles.... this can go on forever. lol i know it sounds childish but if you think about it, it really makes you wonder. I mean HOW DID THIS ALL START!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Obviously we started with nothing.... but what created nothing?! Hope i havent confused everyone:) |
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| mr_sick |
Lol, quote from what I said yesterday:
Maybe the time travel will not be done using some kind of machine going at lightspeed... Maybe it would be done using our own brain! There are some ppl who got some perceptions of the future... Have you ever seen something in a dream that happened days / months / years after this dream? Maybe it's a kind of time travel...
there: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...&threadid=58085 -> Jul-31-2002 14:13
You started your topic like 30 mins later :toothless
I'm also a thinker, every day I got new questions... |
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| SportTrance |
hehe
I have to agree with discitelli on the "creation of the earth". I honestly don't think it will ever be discovered or made official. Scientists/geologist, can say this, they can say that, but none of us were there, and basically, I don't think we'll ever know, not on this earth. Its the same with the argument of evolution. Once again, scientists prove this, prove that, but, then religion jumps right in, and interferes with their theory, and proves them wrong.
I mean there is SO MUCH we don't know. We really don't know much. Scary thing is society doesn't want to know much. The oh so famous words I always like to say are "ignorance is bliss", and it really is.
These mysterys keep us going, keep us wondering, keep up ambitious, keep us productive, keep us intellectual, and keep us wondering.
If we knew all the answers, it wouldn't be so fun. ;)
Anyway, sometimes I wish I didn't think so much. But then again, I look at people that basically don't think at all, people that have no desire to learn or understand any of these topics we discussed, (we all know a couple people like that), and well after looking at them, it really motivates you to continue thinking lol......Besides, we all know, the benefits of thinking, are endless. |
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| Wasted_Space |
| I woke up one morning and didn't know where my pants were. I also couldn't remember the night before. Weird, huh? |
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| SportTrance |
| quote: | Originally posted by Wasted_Space
I woke up one morning and didn't know where my pants were. I also couldn't remember the night before. Weird, huh? |
lol, were you alone? |
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| Wasted_Space |
| Yeah, the chick next to me said i was alone. I believed her. |
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| TiestoInTheMix |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnSmith
lol... nothing is outerworldly, it's all right here around us.
you just have to open your eyes and see it.
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well, what if something is imperceptible with your eyes?
say, luck. what is luck? good, bad, you can't see it, can't feel it, can't smell it, etc.
and about the universe creation and the big bang, let's suppose the particles that exploded were in some other dimension and thus they created the universe in our dimension. but then, where did those other-dimension particles come from? it goes on. |
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| JohnSmith |
Well.. by your eyes, i mean your senses.
hint, you have more than 5. |
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| Renegade |
Brace yourselves, this could be a long one... :)
| quote: | | How do you know we are really here? Just cuz you can feel yourself? See others? How do you know its not a simple creation of visual effects? What if the world does revolve all around you? What if everyone is simply a character in a setting? I dunno, think about that one if ya want..... |
As Davinox and trancaholic have both said, it is impossible to say that you don't exist. By the mere act of considering whether you exist or not, you are proving that you do exist - you cannot ever prove the nature of your existence maybe, but so long as you continue to "think" you must always "be".
A story I read not long ago might help:
A professor has just finished his philosophy lecture when a student comes up to him and says "Professor, please tell me, I need to know! Do I really exist?"
And the professor replies: "Why, who wants to know?"
Okay, maybe it's not a great story, but it helps illustrate the point, non? :rolleyes:
| quote: | | What about destiny.....What if regardless of the choices made now, we we're already pre-destined. I mean, think about it..... |
If the first post was somewhere between ontology and epistemology (asked from the perspective of a Continental rationalist and with the angst of an existentialist no less) then this question deals with the notion of determinism.
Determinism is simply the theory that suggests that all things have a definate cause, and thus nothing is left to chance or, indeed, free will. That is, if you were able to understand the exact state of the universe at any given second, you would be able to predict any subsequent occurance.
The scary side of this perspective, of course, is that it means that all human activity is governed by the same laws that govern everything else. Every action you commit is not done out of free-will ("I think I'll pick up this stick") it's performed, inescapably, because everything that has ever happened in the history of the universe - including every single event in your life - has brought you to where you are now, and all these events act as the cause for your action (picking up the stick).
It's difficult to explain in a few words, but basically if you believe that every event has a definite cause (a la determinism) then it's very hard to assume that you have the free will to do anything, and that in essense, any action you commit - due to everything that's ever happened prior to it - is inescapable, and you were "predestined" (if you wish to use that terminology) to perform it.
Thus, you didn't pick up the stick because you wanted to, you picked up the stick because you had been led to this position by every similarly predestined event that you have experienced in your life, and that it is this endless series of causes that compel you, without choice, to play out your "effect".
I hope you get my drift with all that?
| quote: | | Think about it, according to scientists, we dont even use half our brain. |
Actually we use virtually all of it. :D
| quote: | | Look at deja-vu's......Some call them an immediate pre-sleep, therefore, making you believe, you have "been there before" etc....but I mean, can we really explain em? Scientists are constantly searching for answers....but, how do we know ANYTHING is factual. We've all had that one deja-vu, that was absolutely insane, to the point, it was scary. |
Yeah, deja-vu is an interesting one. It's never the event that's unsettling, it's the sensation that accompanies it: that eerie familiarity. The most vivid deja-vu I can remember having was at the swimming pool with my friend, when I saw his dad - wearing a white swimming cap - giving my friends little brother a piggy-back ride. It really was an overwhelming sensation.
Do I believe that it was some sort of premonition then? That it was something I had previously experienced in sleep (or whatever) that I "remembered" upon witnessing it for the second time?
I doubt it. Next time you get the sensation of deja-vu, try to predict what happens next. Sometimes I've had deja-vu so vivid that I honestly believe I can - yet it never comes true. You never can predict anything, and the feeling of familiarity disipates once more. Surely though, if we had experienced that moment before - or at least pre-empted it in some way - the feeling of familiarity would last longer than the fleeting couple of seconds it usually does. Anyway, even presume that we have somehow experienced a very similar moment before: say I had dreamed about my friends dad in the white cap and recalled the dream when I saw him. I don't think that there's anything supernatural about this.
Think about all the dreams and all the thoughts you've had during your life time. Any mental picture you've ever had. You must have had billions right? Then think about the amount of times you've had deja-vu - for me, I'd be lucky to have had genuine deja-vu more than a couple of dozen times I would have thought. So think about it then. Is it so inconceivable that of the billions of mental images we have ever generated, that some of these long forgotten thoughts just happen correspond to a fairly accurate degree with something we don't encounter until much later? Perhaps, for some odd reason, I had dreamt or thought of my friends dad in a white swimming cap (I may have even seen him in a white swimming cap before, just forgotten about it) and then recalled these memories when presented with the stimuli of my dreams coming true (er, so to speak).
For every thought or dream that comes true later one, there are literally millions that do not. To take these thoughts or dreams as "premonitions" in the strict sense, is to misunderstand the laws of truly large numbers.
| quote: | | Pain, is literally un-detectable. Now, we can tell what causes pain, for example, a swollen muscle, but how can you prove its actually causing pain to the patient? You can't. Just because the muscle is inflamed, or the bone is cracked, doesn't mean you can see the pain. So what really is pain? |
Pain is a state of mind. Pain doesn't exist in your finger, it exists in your brain. It's hard to explain, but you have to understand the concept of "experience" in the philosophical sense.
Take colour for instance: it doesn't really exist. Objects are colourless in the sense that we normally understand it. Try to explain colour using words for instance - it cannot be done. You can talk about how light waves of differing lengths are refracted from the object, travel at 186,000 mph towards your retina, are detected, sent via the optic nerve using electrical impulses towards the brain, where the brain turns the up-side down perecption the right way up, conceptualises it using its own vast network of neurons, until a coherent picture is developed...... but this say nothing of colour. You can talk about colour in these terms all you want, but it doesn't get you any closer to the "experience" of the colours green, blue or red. Try explaining to a blind person what different colours look like. It can't be done. Nor can we explain the sensation - or experience - of the pain of a broken finger to someone who has never experienced it before.
Remember: the way we experience pain, or colour or anything else is entirely unique, depending on the way our minds interpret the sensual information sent to them. Kierkegaard (I hope I spelt that correctly :o) is famous for saying "Truth is subjectivity" and this is a good example. Pain cannot be learnt or conveyed, it can only be experienced. The notions of pain, hot, cold, fluffiness or anything else must be detached from the objects we touch when we expeience those things. Ice isn't cold. There is no such thing as cold except in the way our brains interpret and experience it.
Anyway, I won't be suprised if none of you understood that. It's a hard concept to get across in a few sentences (indeed people like Berkley and Hume spent decades writing books on this very subject).
| quote: | | and, pain can be detected. it is electrical impulses going up the nerves to the brain, where it is interpreted as pain. |
And that's a pretty good example of what I mean actually.
The scientific explanation for pain, is entirely seperate from the experience of pain. They are two different things, and although it's hard to seperate experience from what we call "reality" sometimes it's the only way these sort of things can really be properly understood.
| quote: | | However, you must acknowledge the existence of "something" besides your own existence. |
Even though it's hard to definitively prove such a view, I'd be inclinded to agree.
Consciousness comes from experience (or from "suffering" as Dostoevsky said) as I don't think that any entity born or created without any senses can ever be self-aware. It's incredibly hypothetical, I know, but without some external reference point (i.e. an object or event from the external world which we then experience) I fail to see anyway that anyone can become conscious (so far as we define consciousness as the act of being "aware" in any sense of the word).
Once again, impossible to discuss properly in such a small amount of words though.
Anyway, if any of you anjoy discussing thing, I reccomend you visit the forums of www.ilovephilosophy.com (I think I've mentioned it here before). There's a lot of very intelligent people (who are not at all patronising or "houlier than thou" about it) there who enjoy discussing these sorts of things at length. I'm registed under the nick "JP" in case you do decide to take a look.
So yeah, keep that in mind.
And no, that wasn't spam. :Happy2: |
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| SmellsExcellent |
| quote: | Originally posted by SportTrance
1>
What about destiny.....What if regardless of the choices made now, we we're already pre-destined. I mean, think about it.....For example, you say, "I'm glad I didn't go to there", but, you weren't ever going to go to the there anyways. You didn't go there. You coulda made the choice to go, but you didn't. Was it pre-destined? Is there an actual possibility you WOULD have gone "there"?
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What if when we are falling asleep, we are really waking up? and all this is a dream? Who knows? What DO YOU REALLY know, that can prove that possibility wrong? Remember, try and not base anything on physical science.
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People really do forget how powerful the mind really is......
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1: Life is about choices and free will. This has been discussed by philosiphers since Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, etc.. even before those guys free will was a topic of discussion among thinkers. If we do not chose our path every instant of every day and it really is determined by god or allah or whoever then why do we even exist? I chose to post this message or I don't, i chose to go play ultimate or I dont. I can't believe in a world like this that our lives are mapped, I won't believe it.
2: We are waking up into our sleeping life when we fall asleep in our waking life. I believe in dreams and the power in them so much its almost sick. I started about 5 months ago, recording every dream I had and beginning to almost lead another life... I dream every night and remember 3-5 dreams each night. I can do whatever I please and for me, its a place to escape the limits of real life (if it really is real) and follow whatever my heart and soul desires. When you dream you unlock you unconscience and you can learn so much about yourself.. its just like that "only using 50% comment, you go way deeper in dreams than you can in real life because it is subonscious.
3: Imagine lassie, dead and bleeding on the side of the road. What do you feel? Now inagine a red rose in a green glass vase. Now what do you feel? Think about this: If one of your parents die at midnight on a business trip and you dont know, you arent sad. When you find out a day later you think and then you are sad. Your mind can forget the ty things in life if needed, like lassie dead, and replace it with good stuff like flowers. Not that I would ever want to forget a dead parent, but thats not what it really is all about. You cant go through life being only happy because then the happier times wouldnt seem so happy without the sad times.. what you can do is chose your attitude and have a more fulfilling life (IMO!) and its all mental.
Lastly.,.. my thinking thing is religion and it had been the hardes question for me to even think about let alone answer...
how can there be so many religions coexisting in one world where each seperate one believes that they are the only one and all other are heretics/blasphemous/evil/pagan/etc. And how, as a christian, can I believe that my Jewish, buddhist, and atheyist friends are going to hell because thy do not believe?? How can they believe that I am going to wherever I will go? In the words of Jack Handey: I hope life isn't one buig joke, because I don't get it.
cheers!
-marc |
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| TiestoInTheMix |
all the current concepts and beliefs of so-called human life are wrong. it's ironic that they are so complex, for they do not exist in this so-called reality. we've created god and religion by believing in them. we've created material things by thinking they were possible. but, in fact, they do not exist as you'd expect them to exist, nor do we exist in the similar way.
there are some things far beyond our perception and far beyond our understanding, and truly, how can a blind person understand colors, if she / he does not have the ABILITY to see them? we, humans, are a very primitive form of existence. |
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