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Nozick's Experience Machine - would you plug in? (pg. 3)
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| Tangil |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
I may be missing something here, but is this related to well-being, at all? Well, problem #2 definitely is but, how about knowledge? Let's face it, even if we knew what's coming for us in our life, it's hard to believe we'd want to "stick to the pre-programmed script". Would you? |
This is related to well-being in the sense that you would have more well-being if you have more pleasure. And pleasure can be derived in indirect ways - such as having negative things to others removed. So, once you are in the machine everyone around you would be healthy and happy as well, if that is what would give you happiness.
"Sticking to the script" would only be an issue for the brief 10 minutes that we're out of the machine. Once we're in the machine I don't think we'd be consciously aware of the script that we'd written for the next 2 years. If we were, it would limit the actual experiences themselves as we would know/expect much of what was happenig and would therefore make everything a lot more boring.
That said, the mere fact of programming 2 years of their life would prevent many people from plugging in.
Do you think that to actually want to do certain things rather than merely experiencing them, implies that there is a sense of achievement or satisfaction that we get when we do something rather than just experiencing it? That doing certain things can actually change who were are on a deeper level. (Although this might be encroaching upon Nozick's "be").
You've raised some good points here Lira, I'll respond to some more of them later on.
Cheers |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tangil
I think you only connect once. Once you've connected there is no way to distinguish being inside the machine from reality, so you wouldn't ever think of disconnecting. So you've really just got the one choice: to either connect or not.
Julien2 can you please elaborate a bit on what "informed preference" is. Do you think Nozick has refuted Hedonism? |
Nah that, that's not life. It's a fabricated existence which deep down wouldn't make me happy.
One of the best parts of life is the experiences you go through. Plugging in and bypassing all that is a waste in my view. It's the same as hallucinogenic drugs. I don't artificial crap to enjoy life, apart from the odd drink or two but that's more for the social aspect. |
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| Chimney |
What's the meaning of life then?
It's the hunt, the rush of talking to a beautiful woman, to feel the fear and satisfaction when you get her, or fulfilling all dreams for that matter.
If one would only connect this kind of machine, the outcome would, more or less, be settled before hand, wouldn't it?
This might sound as a cliché, however I do believe that in a neutral state we can achieve most of the things we want, as long as we dedicated enough time and/or passion towards it.
Except all of these things, it's about the things we learn from failing or from obsolete actions as taking a walk with a certain idea in mind and developing it. It seems, to me at least, that in a pre-programed reality there would be no time for this, because most of us would design our scenario to be fulfilled with positive things, painless, tireless, simply beautiful.
Personally, I learned more from life from the mistakes and bad times I had, than from the good times. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| Insofar as is possible, I like to be distinguish between reality and hallucination, so I know what might be about to kill me. |
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| jenga |
Intresting...it really comes down to altruism doesn't it? Living your life plugged into a machine which makes you feel the same as life isn't different to the real thing...unless you care about doing something on the outside to further the world and help other people out. Are the machines infinite, or do they need someone to keep them going?
I think most people's choice would depend on society, if it was considered acceptable or not, if there were a lot of people already doing it etc. |
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| Tangil |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chimney
What's the meaning of life then?
It's the hunt, the rush of talking to a beautiful woman, to feel the fear and satisfaction when you get her, or fulfilling all dreams for that matter.
If one would only connect this kind of machine, the outcome would, more or less, be settled before hand, wouldn't it?
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The outcome would be settled, but you would know this only for the brief time that you were outside of the machine, once inside it would seem as if it were reality. You would receive the same rush as you would outside the machine. That said, the experiences would be limited to what has already happened in the actual world. You would be basing them on something, and in that sense, nothing really "new" would happen.
I'd plug in just to try it. Even though it wouldn't actually be real, having the experience of walking on the moon would be insane (without having to do all the hard work of training to be an astronaut.)
I wouldn't plug in for a substantial amount of time though. I'd prefer to live my life, rather than simply base it on experiences of others that have come before me. |
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| Tangil |
| quote: | Originally posted by jenga
Intresting...it really comes down to altruism doesn't it? Living your life plugged into a machine which makes you feel the same as life isn't different to the real thing...unless you care about doing something on the outside to further the world and help other people out. Are the machines infinite, or do they need someone to keep them going?
I think most people's choice would depend on society, if it was considered acceptable or not, if there were a lot of people already doing it etc. |
This is a good point. Plugging into the machine is a purely selfish concern and would be frowned upon by society (not that you'd know or care because you are in the machine.) Although I'm not sure that this would really prevent that many people from plugging in. I could be overstating things but I think a lot of people are not that altrustic! |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
Sounds as though it would be incomparably addictive. Escapism is a dangerous (by traditional standards) thing when it absolutely shatters the line between what's reality and what's fantasy. People would go insane when they weren't contantly fed bits of this "preferable" reality because we are largely a pleasure-seeking species that has been subject to the rough edges of our own reality by force and circumstance- not by choice. Remove this choice and you no longer have mankind as we know it, but something else far removed from the consequence of living.
Anyone experienced an ego loss you suddenly realized you would never come back from? The only thing to quell the ing avalanche of bad feelings is the sudden realization that you took something and that it will wear off at some point, whenever you return to yourself (by that point you've already returned of course, you just have to convince yourself of it). Imagine being stuck in that feeling though, and for the rest of your life being unable to differentiate what's real and what's simulated. That'd be horrendous. |
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| Ygrene |
| I would not plug in. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tangil
Imagine that there is a machine that has been designed by super scientists which stimluates your brain to give you whatever pleasurable experiences you could ever want... |
no need to imagine this machine already exists its called a computer. |
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| couch-potato |
Stu put his shirt back on and then he put my shirt back on and then he wiped his mouth with his sleeve. He opened the door. The window in the hallway was open and the sun was cold and bright. The hallway smelled like trees. Then Stu led me into the room with everyone else and Will was putting a bottle back in the sideboard.
"What he moaning for?" Acton asked.
"Chlola keeps posting," Stu said.
"Damn shame he went dumb," Jenny said while she was fanning herself.
"Bound to happen to all of us, I reckon," Hal said while he was fanning Jenny. "Del didn't say nothin about never being to log out of this God-forsaken place."
"Don't say that," Jenny said.
"Sorry, sugar." Hal said.
"Experiment machine my ass," Acton said and then he spit.
"Guess he really is couch-potato now!" IGK said. Will took the bottle back out from the sideboard and threw the bottle at IGK. IGK ducked and hissed at Will. Then Will made a face like when I wet the bed and then he crawled on the floor and licked the liquid that spilled out of the bottle. IGK kept hissing and I didn't like it so I started crying and Hal said Now look what you done can't you ever leave a child alone. Then Jenny said You know he can't. IGK kept hissing at everyone and backed into the corner hissing at everyone and then he started touching himself like he always does when he's cornered and hissing.
"Now none of us can use the side of that room again," Acton said.
"Hal you don't need to fan so hard," Jenny said.
"Sorry, sugar. I get a little excited is all," Hal said.
"This no spectacle for a child. Take him outside," Jenny said.
Stu said OK and then he took my hand and we ran outside to the fence and through the fence, between the curling flower spaces, I could see Yukii walking with her book bag behind her and then she started running and then she stopped.
"What you let him get his hands so cold for?" she said.
"I told him to keep them in his pockets," Stu said.
"You don't want to get your hands froze for Thanksgiving, do you. Did you come to meet Yukii. Haven't you got your Yukii now."
"IGK having another hiss fit."
"Oh GOD," Yukii said and then she gagged like I do when Stu is moaning and tells me to be quiet.
"Let's go down to the barn then."
Yukii and Stu held my hands and we ran past the pig pen. The pig pen smelled like pigs. Then we ran past the branch and into the barn. Ygrene was milking a cow without using his hands. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chimney
What's the meaning of life then? |
Why should there be a meaning?
| quote: | Originally posted by Tangil
This is related to well-being in the sense that you would have more well-being if you have more pleasure. And pleasure can be derived in indirect ways - such as having negative things to others removed. So, once you are in the machine everyone around you would be healthy and happy as well, if that is what would give you happiness. |
Sorry, I didn't phrase my question clearly. I know well-being and pleasure seem to have a direct correlation, but knowledge? That's why I mentioned the script: the ultimate knowledge we could have of our lives would be knowing exactly what will happen - yet it's hard to believe that anyone would have this knowledge and not do something to change one outcome or another, which would eventually bring about a completely different scenario we know nothing about.
That's the problem with the machine: You know exactly what's going to happen, apparently. That's the ultimate buzzkill :p
| quote: | Originally posted by Tangil
"Sticking to the script" would only be an issue for the brief 10 minutes that we're out of the machine. Once we're in the machine I don't think we'd be consciously aware of the script that we'd written for the next 2 years. If we were, it would limit the actual experiences themselves as we would know/expect much of what was happenig and would therefore make everything a lot more boring. |
Hmm... didn't take this into consideration. Well, if we have our memories erased, then I can't see a problem here...
| quote: | Originally posted by Tangil
Do you think that to actually want to do certain things rather than merely experiencing them, implies that there is a sense of achievement or satisfaction that we get when we do something rather than just experiencing it? That doing certain things can actually change who were are on a deeper level. (Although this might be encroaching upon Nozick's "be"). |
Maybe, yeah. It's hard to say because it depends a lot on the person: some people would rather take the trouble to find a girl, convince her after a while that you're a nice person to be naked with, and then contribute to the perpetuation of the species; other people, however, apparently prefer to simply withdraw some money from an ATM and hand them over to a person with whom there are arguably no strings attached. In both senses, you experience the perks of being a multicellular organism that can't reproduce on your own but, on the other, you acquired this experience with little effort. Likewise, someone may work their arse off for years in order to receive a Nobel Prize, whereas someone else is more of an idealist slacker and wants to feel what it is like to go to Stockholm receive a gold medal without taking the trouble to actually work for it.
I find it hard to draw a general conclusion from this... |
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