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How to tell if your basses are going to cancel each other out? (pg. 2)
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| utdarsenal |
yeah but how can I rely on my monitors to tell me if they're cancelling out or not when usually the monitors are different brand/type than the speakers that are out in the crowd? well at least at the places I've played..
A lot of times I don't have monitors either so I have to try my best to listen on the speakers even though it's hard |
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| Mad for Brad |
| don't mix bass, Have either channel high passed. I suppose you can do cuts with the other bass but actually mixing the bass is not really something that will sound good. |
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| utdarsenal |
I'll try that next time I play on a pioneer mixer..
but a lot of times I don't get the chance to play on a mixer that has filter effects.
I've also seen on dj shows (camera is right on top of the dj pointing down to their mixer) that a lot of dj's do that- I find it REALLY lame, maybe cause it's just too simple and boring turning on an effect everytime I do a transition- though it did sound good most of the time.
It's still very important to know how to work the basses good though. |
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| Mad for Brad |
| i just meant that as in kill the bass any way you can. I suppose with most mixers it will be a set curve with 24 dB reduction or what not. THere is no way to really work the basses unless they are cuts. They will phase even if your track is lined up because A, they are never lined up perfectly and B, you don't know what phase the other track might be. Just avoid it. You have nothing to gain. |
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| Apeattack |
| quote: | Originally posted by utdarsenal
but a lot of times I don't get the chance to play on a mixer that has filter effects.
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Going along with what Mad for Brad said...
Don't worry about the filter effects. Your mixer should have high, mid, and low (bass) knobs. Usually, you will want to have the bass knob of the dominant track at the 12 O'Clock position (or greater) and the bass knob of the other track much lower (or completely killed).
By switching the two basses (quickly or slowly), this will change the dominance of each track in the mix. Usually you do not want to have both basses at the 12 O'Clock position at the same time. |
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| utdarsenal |
K.
it's ing hard to do this in a club..
last two places i've played - sound systems were ing loud so I could hardly hear the music with the volume at halfway.. the only way i could clearly hear the song was if i had it near to max volume on the headphones .. and it'd sound horrible- a lot of static and distortion (and i was using a djm 800 and sennheiser hd 25 ii headphones) .. there was no possible way I could tell if the beats were canceling each other out, unlike when I mix at home, because of the static/distortion..
is this common with all of you? |
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| Rodri Santos |
sometimes clubs equipment suck a lot, i played on a mixer whose headphone jack was lossy and at times you didn't hear both channels, a bit annoying because sometimes you thought "Oh perfectly beatmatched and was far from reality" if you are going to play on loud enviroments get a pair of earplugs, you'll hear the music less distorted, and don't turn up your headphones, seriously if it's just a common gig don't damage your ears trying to decide if this bass cancels the other or not, people won't care about that, they'll keep themselves drunk and flirting.
Generally mixing at home is easier because of this, you can adjust all the volume to your needings, i've played in some clubs where you had a pack of speakers literally at your back with horrid results and others where you have a good pair of monitors that you could adjust and a fantastic sound system, i particularly remember a club near my city with wooden walls and a really neat sound, the wood was cracking due to the vibration but still the sound was clear, they had good power stages and speakers, clubs should invest more in equipment if they want perfect music sets. |
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| djkatmaus |
| How do you work your transitions? Do you mix straight between input fader to input fader or do you use the crossfader. Enlightening on what others are saying (which is correct), I've always found using a crossfader seems to destroy some of my transitions. Regardless of where my eq is set. |
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| 112268 |
| quote: | Originally posted by utdarsenal
K.
it's ing hard to do this in a club..
last two places i've played - sound systems were ing loud so I could hardly hear the music with the volume at halfway.. the only way i could clearly hear the song was if i had it near to max volume on the headphones .. and it'd sound horrible- a lot of static and distortion (and i was using a djm 800 and sennheiser hd 25 ii headphones) .. there was no possible way I could tell if the beats were canceling each other out, unlike when I mix at home, because of the static/distortion..
is this common with all of you? |
use earplug protections!!!
u might not believe it but it makes it easier to hear details both from your headphones and the soundsystem - and best of all youll have your hearing longer. its like wearing shades in the sun, makes everything less agitating.
oh and dont forget, you are the dj, you decide the volume (sometimes lol). |
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| Rodri Santos |
| quote: | Originally posted by djkatmaus
How do you work your transitions? Do you mix straight between input fader to input fader or do you use the crossfader. Enlightening on what others are saying (which is correct), I've always found using a crossfader seems to destroy some of my transitions. Regardless of where my eq is set. |
i've never used the crossfader for mixing, it changes the dominancy of the track too fast to be smooth. I've seen some people using it on youtube videos but looks more difficult personally i mix with both faders up and use the eqs. |
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| keithos27 |
| Can someone post a video of high-pass filtering? |
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| Nemesis44 |
Interesting question and I see a lot of people have put in their share on this. Sorry didn’t get a chance to read all of the input on this but the way I see it is as follows:
Let’s identify the problem first. Cancellation happens when you have two identical frequencies that are in exactly opposite positions in their respective wave form. It basically works on the principal of 1 + -1 = 0. Equally if you have the wave forms in exactly the same position in the wave form this will give the effect of amplification.
Now let’s talk about the Bass sounds themselves. Unless you are playing two identical tracks or the producers used exactly the same patch with the same effects and level of compression (Unlikely but not impossible) you are not going to affect everything. This does not mean that it couldn’t sound ugly but you get the picture.
As a basic guide you can break the bass sounds down into three main areas. You have your low bass, your mid bass and your high bass. Keep in mind that the below are just guidelines.
Low Bass – Sub Frequencies often playing a simplification of the main bass line used to give a bottom layer for the rest of the mix to sit on.
Mid Bass – Often where your main bass melody is written, in trance this is the characteristic rolling bass line that you hear.
High Bass – The stabby aspects of bass which will often be a complementing melody based on the Mid.
You will have many variations of this but this will give you a pointer in the right direction. Depending on the patch used and the mixing of the track it is entirely possible that the mid can have frequencies that falls into either the high or the low range so it’s not impossible for them to share frequencies, especially on another incoming track. In other words it also depends on the bass sound that was used.
Simplification of the actual problem, the next question is how you combat this?
Firstly there is no real way to tell for sure before you play a track especially in a club environment, but it all boils down to how you manage the track that you are mixing in and this is all done using EQ. You also have to bear in mind that exactly the same principles apply to the kick too and in my experience this is the element most likely to cause cancellation issues rather than the bass.
Mixing in key is not going to make things worse or better as there are so many other factors that need to be taken into account. You also have to remember that when it comes down to musical notes especially in the synth age, when you have a complex patch it is very likely that even if the dominant frequency may be different it is entirely probable that there will be other frequencies in the patch shared by other notes. Harmonics etc.
When playing on a big system it’s the bass that is the most noticeable and gives the impression of being the loudest (When I say bass I mean the bottom end of the track not the bass patch). This is why you have to pay most attention to this when mixing. A lot of what you do as a DJ comes down to understanding the structure of the music as well as your skills to use EQ.
As far as the EQ goes, a simple rule of thumb is to only give to the incoming track what you have taken away from the outgoing track. Your starting points however, may vary greatly depending on the mixer that you are using and indeed the system you are playing on. I have played on systems in the past where whatever you appear to do with the bass EQ it made no difference, it was just this wall of sound, and in those cases you have to roll with it. In those instances you either have to rely on your headphones or the booth monitors. But as mentioned before, what you hear on the booth monitors and headphones does not always translate into what the main PA is doing. Sometimes you can’t win.
The bottom line is that EQ and suitable placement of tracks are the answer. You will often find that guys who seem to seamlessly mix tracks together tend to use musical structure more than the ability to play two bass lines together.
If you use phrase matching correctly this should also go a long way to help. Many of the change overs that I use are very quick as I tend to use breaks and other major events in the track to introduce incoming tracks.
A lot of this also comes down to knowing your music well, it’s all well and good having a collection of 10’000 mp3s on your hard drive but if you don’t have any connection with the music then you are mixing blind. That said many songs today follow a similar structure so perhaps not so much of an issue as it used to be.
To summarise:
Mixing in key – Correct use of EQ would nullify any potential issue that this could cause. Using this would open up so many other opportunities in your mixes. This does seem to divide a lot of people but ultimately the choice to use it or not is yours. Often when you find two tunes that just sound as if they were made for each other and it becomes one of your favourite mixes, then it is highly probable that they actually have some harmonic characteristic that makes them work in that way.
EQ – Mastering this skill is the answer cancelation issues.
Phrase Matching – This is the first step to mastering the correct place to drop tracks into the mix.
Knowing your music – This will assist you with your phrase matching in order to get the best mixes.
Just my two pence worth.
Cheers
Nem
EDIT - A crossfader is totally pointless for what we do as a general rule. Does depend slightly on genre, i.e. your Drum and Bass, Breaks and Dubstep guys might have a different opinion but for 4 to the floor EDM it’s not really much use.
High Pass Filtering works in a similar way to EQ, i.e. it removes unwanted frequencies depending on the roll off. Nice if you have it on a mixer but certainly not essential and even debatable if it actually makes the mixes better as the cut can seem unnatural. |
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