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E-Spectro ft Trox - You Call It Magic (EZ's Alice in Wonderland Mix) (pg. 3)
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| Raphie |
So System-J what do you think of my version then?
Eddie, the "remixpack" is kind of wonkey and needs some preperation in order to become useful, since the vocals are already loosely timed and most people don't know how to calculate a BMP anymore, they strugle finding the tempo and start chopping around in frustration. As you can hear on the several SC remixes
My version has the original wav, begin to end, no chops, no timing or pitching artifacts. So it CAN be done. also on vocal clarity, i've done A LOT of processing to get the vocal nailed into place dynamics wise and mask the exorbitant vibrato in something more bearable.
One either likes what i did with them (or hates it :D ) but there is nothing "wrong" with the vocals. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Raphie
One either likes what i did with them (or hates it :D ) but there is nothing "wrong" with the vocals. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eddie Zilker
The bottom line is that the vocals were sung to a different mix and fit that mix, according to its producer. |
Never said there was. I even took the percussion loop, submitted with the remix pack and used it to make sure the tempo was set, correctly.
| quote: | Originally posted by Eddie Zilker
If you didn't manipulate them, than they fit within the original content of the song that I completely dispensed with. |
The thought that you didn't touch the vocals, in any way, had crossed my mind and I still concede your mix was spot on. I interpreted your suggestion of stretching them as a possibility that you might have, but my reasoning as to why you've found them lacking in my version stands. |
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| Raphie |
but the percussion loop was in a different tempo AND sample rate than the vocals, so they could never be aligned one to the other, without time stretching (i also thought the loop sucked big time, as did the guitar)
to make it even more interesting the midi have been exported in yet another different tempo.
I'm merely saying that people who are used to just dragging loops and expect there DAW to sort it all out for them tempo wise, will have a tough one with this pack :D |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I'm trying to come up with two possibilities for why you've included such poor beats and bass. One is that you weren't really interested in how danceable this track is, which is where the Poe would come in. Because if this isn't really about being danceable, why is the kick drum the first, last and most prominent sound on the track? How does the percussion in this track accentuate the overall effect? Is the percussion really interesting and engaging enough to justify its constant presence in the track?
The other possibility is you just can't really put together a funky groove. Just turn it up nice and loud and consider whether it makes you want to dance. There's a complete lack of bassline, which sucks the energy out of the track (meaning it lacks aforementioned drive) and denies you a key musical element the dancer responds to. I can sort of hearing it coming through early on in the track but it's still not any kind of bassline that makes me want to bob my head. I don't think you're so completely lacking in da funk that you'd seriously think this is an acceptable dancefloor bottom end.
I had a similar issue with Superstition. I was going to ask why you'd bothered putting a constant bassline in, when the bass was so perfunctory and secondary. You seem to have a taste for tracks that comprise shuffly, vague breakbeat patterns and muddy or extremely uninteresting basslines, above which you have many more subtle elements trickling past, generating muted atmospheres that slowly evolve over the course of the track. I'm just struggling to figure out whether you just don't have any intrinsic sense of rhythm or whether you're putting these pointless rhythmic elements in for their own sake. |
My intention with my bass lines, perhaps mistakenly as I understand the convention which places them more prominently in the mix and arrangement in dance music, is to provide a supporting strata to carry the rest of the elements. Even in songs, like "Tapestry" where the bass-line is clearly present (albeit minimalistic), my favorite dwelling space, creatively, resides in the upper mids to highs and it's typically where I begin work on the track. The ultimate goal is to have a perfectly balanced track where parts fit like a glove, the low-end drives the song, but the high end also carries a significant burden and keep things interesting.
I'll submit that it's not a failure of rhythmic sense but a failure to properly work a decent bass-line out of the corner I box myself into by doing a top down design. I'll still argue that it's wrong-headed of any producer to always start from the bottom up (or from any particular place, as a rule) but I think your perceptions of this are spot on and my next three songs, at least, will start from the bottom with particular emphasis on creating a better syncopation between the kick and the bass, which will be more noticeable in both presence and quantity, and then moving up to arrange the rest of the elements around those.
Another aspect of my producing, which is playing into your observations, is that I'm working out a methodology that allows me to make up for short-comings in processing power of my computer by offsetting the workload the CPU is put under by converting synthesizer and sampler phrases into samples and then importing those samples into Reason 3, where they're placed into more elaborate arrangements and put through additional processing. It's actually become more of than a simple work-around, as the process also offers some creative ability to trigger complete chords and phrases with infinite possibilities and flexibility. An example of this can be heard in the chord progression, first heard at the beginning of "Tapestry" which is played throughout the entire song. That's not me hitting the keys repeatedly, throughout the piece, but more, a method by which phrases are stacked.
That necessitated some working out, ahead of time, in order to achieve a coherent result with the chord progression. The downside of the new technique is that it's a new learning curve which requires a little technical mastery in order to achieve an artistic result. Hence, when you're remarking that I seem to be playing around in structure rather than with an intent, again, I concede, you're spot-ing-on.
You caught me, dead to rights, in the middle of a learning curve, already neglecting some other important features.
Thank you, Jack.
EDIT to add, already.
| quote: | Originally posted by Raphie
but the percussion loop was in a different tempo AND sample rate than the vocals, so they could never be aligned one to the other, without time stretching (i also thought the loop sucked big time, as did the guitar)
to make it even more interesting the midi have been exported in yet another different tempo.
I'm merely saying that people who are used to just dragging loops and expect there DAW to sort it all out for them tempo wise, will have a tough one with this pack :D |
I had to truncate the percussion loop to get it seated correctly.
But, man, I couldn't stand it or the other loops, either. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
My recommendation is you do another mix where you completely scrap the beats and do a weird dubbed-out ambient mix, making the most of the mood you've got going. The promise I see in your music is in the weirdly effective minimalist melodic elements you use. The amount of space you leave in your tracks is peaceful yet vaguely disconcerting, almost on the edge of agoraphobia. I understand what Cryophonik said about feeling as though a cat is about to jump on you. I get the vibe of being sat high up in a field staring up at distant thunderclouds: everything's peaceful now, but there's just that edge, that uneasiness. Reminds me of the more contemplative Plastikman material, or Jam & Spoon's "Hispanos In Space".
Again, I've got this vibe before in your work, but I don't think you've built on it enough because you're being held back by this loyalty to ty breakbeats. I think you should ditch 'em and go for the ambient, the inert, the ultra-spatial. Embrace the paranoia. Creep me the out. |
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| Raphie |
I think that's excellent advise! you described that really well,
Eddie, your a star at painting athmospere, you now just nead to capitalize on it. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
My recommendation is you do another mix where you completely scrap the beats and do a weird dubbed-out ambient mix, making the most of the mood you've got going. The promise I see in your music is in the weirdly effective minimalist melodic elements you use. The amount of space you leave in your tracks is peaceful yet vaguely disconcerting, almost on the edge of agoraphobia. I understand what Cryophonik said about feeling as though a cat is about to jump on you. I get the vibe of being sat high up in a field staring up at distant thunderclouds: everything's peaceful now, but there's just that edge, that uneasiness. Reminds me of the more contemplative Plastikman material, or Jam & Spoon's "Hispanos In Space".
Again, I've got this vibe before in your work, but I don't think you've built on it enough because you're being held back by this loyalty to ty breakbeats. I think you should ditch 'em and go for the ambient, the inert, the ultra-spatial. Embrace the paranoia. Creep me the out. |
I'll think on the ambient idea, for this track, but I like it.
This track not-withstanding, atmospherics are something that I've actually been paying close attention to, lately, but I'm attached to the idea of combining them with rhythmic elements. The thought of just focusing on ambient while making music invokes a stifling sense of dread.
Granted they're not ideal, but what songs of mine best present their rhythm elements and why? In other words, what am I doing right? |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| Thus far you haven't been very clear on what your intentions are with the rhythmic side of the music. Why is it so important to you that beats form part of your music? I get dismayed when I hear electronic music that wants to be about ambience or atmospherics but just can't shake the reliance on a repetitive beat. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Thus far you haven't been very clear on what your intentions are with the rhythmic side of the music. Why is it so important to you that beats form part of your music? I get dismayed when I hear electronic music that wants to be about ambience or atmospherics but just can't shake the reliance on a repetitive beat. |
I think it lacks something without beats. It's a drone without a pulse. It just feels hollow. The one ambient/drone track I made, while possibly formative, also left me uninspired.
My weaknesses, as I see them, with beats is a reliance on the rest of the song to carry progression that could probably be better carried forward in conjunction with progression in the rhythm section. It's probably a little too loopy and perhaps not complex enough.
I've been working on the atmospheric background because I think it enhances the over-all feel of the track but the rhythmic element is definitely key to my enjoyment of the process. |
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| Richard Butler |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
I think it lacks something without beats. It's a drone without a pulse. It just feels hollow. The one ambient/drone track I made, while possibly formative, also left me uninspired.
My weaknesses, as I see them, with beats is a reliance on the rest of the song to carry progression that could probably be better carried forward in conjunction with progression in the rhythm section. It's probably a little too loopy and perhaps not complex enough.
I've been working on the atmospheric background because I think it enhances the over-all feel of the track but the rhythmic element is definitely key to my enjoyment of the process. |
Someone like Owien is a master of ambient but all the rest for me just forms in my mind as a single samey entity. In the end I've heard it all a billion times, in films, on adds, in every garden centre, in every yoga class. Only a handful of ambient tunes stanbd out in history, and I can't remember how any of them goes in my head right now.
Classic 90's atmoshperic Drum and bass for me is when ambient gets exciting and far more mysterious and evvocative. |
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| Evolve140 |
| Doesn't really have the drive, it is indeed kind of bland. If you are going to use the dance drums, don't just use them "to use them", use them with effect. It's like using a dance drum kit without the dance music vibe or style or drive. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Evolve140
Doesn't really have the drive, it is indeed kind of bland. If you are going to use the dance drums, don't just use them "to use them", use them with effect. It's like using a dance drum kit without the dance music vibe or style or drive. |
So, basically, the samples which I meticulously fashioned from composites of drum stacks that I've previously used, sound like they came from a factory preset pattern?
ing ACE! :toothless |
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