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What Killed The Club District? (pg. 2)
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| Endlesswave |
| One good thing is making John st a pedestrian only street, that would rock. But I bet you they'll get more pissed off IF they do that at all the drunk people walking around and decide to change it back... |
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| Jayx1 |
The idea of that pedestrian street is to have it without clubs.
I wouldnt be against the gentrification of this area if it happened naturally and there was a place where clubs could relocate. Unfortunately this is not the case due to the restrictive laws in place that ensure that it wont happen. There is a market for big dance clubs, but nowhere left to do it properly. |
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| PivotTechno |
Wondering why you neglected to highlight these minor details:
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Here is an example of the AGCO in Ottawa:
Ottawa bars near home of NHL's Senators face liquor bans
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Tom Spears, Canwest News Service · Tuesday, Jan. 13, 2009
OTTAWA -- Two bars near Scotiabank Place have been hit with lengthy liquor licence suspensions after provincial inspectors found a pattern of drunken rowdiness.
Philthy McNasty’s and O’Connor’s Irish Pub, both in Kanata Centrum, are under suspension for a series of liquor offences in the fall and winter a year ago.
Philthy McNasty’s is serving a 33-day suspension lasting until Feb. 9; O’Connor’s lost its liquor licence for 17 days and can re-open on Jan. 21.
“There was quite a series of incidents that took place, and there was a continuing pattern of conduct,” said Lisa Murray, a spokeswoman for the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario, which issues (and suspends) liquor licences.
“Many of them were (Ottawa Senators) game nights,” she added. The inspectors reported that many of the customers began their nights at the hockey game and came to the Centrum pubs to keep the evening going.
It’s the first suspension for Philthy McNasty’s. O’Connor’s had suspensions in 2003 (five days) and 2007 (10 days) -- one for overcrowding and one for drunkenness.
But while the suspensions are for a series of offences a year ago, the area’s councillor says fights and overdrinking have continued ever since. “There’s been some real problems there,” said Marianne Wilkinson.
“They’re very large bars. The liquor flows, and then they (customers) come out at the end of it and have fights,” Ms. Wilkinson said.
“It’s been a long time,” she said. “They had a community meeting about a month ago.
“They are serving alcohol to people who are obviously drunk, and they get even drunker, and their employees are not discouraging them.”
“The suspension is longer for Philthy McNasty’s — I hate that name — than from O’Connor’s, but both have been problems for some time,” she said.
“The police tell me it is a place they have to go to. At 2 a.m. Sunday morning (or) Saturday morning, they have to have a presence there. The mall was even considering hiring off-duty police to be there. That’s how difficult it’s become.”
At Philthy McNasty’s, the liquor inspectors, sometimes accompanied by police, found drunk customers on each of six visits from October 2007 to January 2008.
In one case, the bar’s security people did not take measures to make sure that customers were remaining calm, “and people were just getting really unruly,” Ms. Murray said.
On another, a staff member tried to block police officers who were arresting the staff member’s drunk brother.
The bar has agreed as a condition of its sentence to install video cameras at the entrances and keep video records as evidence.
O’Connor’s also admitted that liquor inspectors and police had found drunks on the premises on two visits about a year ago, Ms. Murray said.
“This is again the same type of thing: There is a pattern of conduct in allowing disruptive behaviour by patrons on sort of an ongoing basis.”
O’Connor’s also agreed to install video cameras.
At Philthy McNasty’s, the main door is boarded up and a sign reads: “We will be closed until February 9 for renovations. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause as we look forward to introducing you to our new and improved Philthy McNasty’s! Sincerely, Ownership and Management.”
This is right next to a yellow sign from the Alcohol and Gaming Commission that says the bar had its liquor licence suspended due to 10 counts of permitting drunkenness and three counts of failing to deter disorderly conduct outdoors.
Inspectors identify themselves to the staff on duty when they check out a bar or restaurant and let them know if they find problems, Ms. Murray said.
When they find problems, “then it’s likely that those establishments will see the inspectors more often.”
The suspensions were negotiated between the provincial commission and the two bars. There was no hearing for either case.
The two suspensions are very lengthy by Ontario standards, Ms. Murray said. Most offences bring a warning, a fine, or a shorter suspension. (Scotiabank Place itself served a one-day liquor licence suspension on Nov. 11.)
“Anything 14 days or over is considered a serious length.”
“We’ll abide by the laws that the government of Ontario has laid out, and do our best to follow the strict regulations of the Liquor Licensing Act,” said Jeff White, vice-president of the Pegasus Group, which sells Philthy’s franchises.
But he said it’s nearly impossible for a bar that holds 500 customers to avoid having a few drunks.
The recent suspension, he said, “put us in a tough, tough position, but there’s really not much we can do. There’s 500 people in the place, and we try to keep an eye on everybody, but it’s pretty hard to do so,” he said.
Cutting the number of customers makes the business unprofitable, said Mr. White. “When you’re busy, that’s when they (inspectors) come looking for you. They don’t go into Swiss Chalet looking for liquor infractions. They come into the busiest restaurant, and we were the busiest bar at that time.”
But he said the Philthy’s chain may have to evolve into smaller, pub-style establishments, and the day of big bars with crowds, excitement, dance floors and bands is fading away.
Representatives of O’Connor’s Irish Pub could not be reached for comment.
With files from Brendan Kennedy, Citizen staff
The Ottawa Citizen
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Now...and let me get this straight - from a libertarian perspective, the bar owners should be free to do as they please on their own premises, correct? Even though fights are breaking out on a regular basis and other local establishments (i.e.: the mall in which the bars are situated) evidently feel the venues are problematic?
Am I getting this right? |
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| Endlesswave |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
The idea of that pedestrian street is to have it without clubs.
I wouldnt be against the gentrification of this area if it happened naturally and there was a place where clubs could relocate. Unfortunately this is not the case due to the restrictive laws in place that ensure that it wont happen. There is a market for big dance clubs, but nowhere left to do it properly. |
They tried huge clubs in the area (aka circa) and it failed. Throuh its own doing (crazy interest rates rather than anything else).
Clubs are already relocating (See the article, to ossington and queen west and probably other places).
As for the pedestrian street without clubs, they think that'll stop the drunks? It may be worse if they have sports bars in the area with people getting tanked regardless. Meh. |
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| GGM |
Ottawa is boring as hell. Live there for awhile and you'll soon realize there's tons of drunkenness cause there's simply nothing better left to do. They can have fun shutting down 1 bar that earns it's living off of allowing pure sloppiness cause theres only 98123 other ones in the city that will do the same. And if you shut those down, F it they'll cross the bridge to Hull where it's even worse.
I'll never forget the Liquor Dome. Imagine a scaled down Guvernment main room with a weaker version of everything it has, and DOLLAR drink nights. Yes it got shut down from numerous and repeat liquor license infractions. It's populace probly just moved on to the bar they're talking about in that article (case in point) lol... |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by PivotTechno
Wondering why you neglected to highlight these minor details:
Now...and let me get this straight - from a libertarian perspective, the bar owners should be free to do as they please on their own premises, correct? Even though fights are breaking out on a regular basis and other local establishments (i.e.: the mall in which the bars are situated) evidently feel the venues are problematic?
Am I getting this right? |
I was waiting for you to chime in now that im in this thread since you seem to be on a personal grudge mission. LOL!
Anyways. When it comes to bar fights. If a fight breaks out in a club, EVEN IF IT IS DEALT WITH IN A QUICK A PROFESSIONAL MANNER it does not matter. The fight happened even if its over within 30 seconds and under the liquor act thats a charge. Ill take it even further. It is the word of the inspector against the club and thats it. They dont even need the people involved in the fight to testify. They dont even need to know their names. No one even needs to be charged. If the inspector says there was a fight, there was a fight. Thats how AGCO court works.
Fights should be dealt with by the police (when warranted) and the offenders charged. The business does not encourage fighting, why should it be charged? Unless one of their employees can be proven to have started the fight, what grounds is there?
As a libertarian i believe in putting blame where its due. And the blame lies on the shoulders of the idiots doing the fighting.
Also in AGCO court, being intoxicated is also a charge. And again its solely the word of the inspector. The inspector does not need to know how many drinks the person had, the persons name and not even a breath sample. If a person stumbles or is "extremely happy" they are drunk.
Dont believe me? Ask any club manager or owner and they will tell you. The AGCO is a communist kangaroo court in its purest form.
So when i see charges trumped up like that by the AGCO or a media outlet, i dont buy it.
Tell me that a club forced people to drink against their will and now maybe you have a case in my eyes. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Endlesswave
They tried huge clubs in the area (aka circa) and it failed. Throuh its own doing (crazy interest rates rather than anything else).
Clubs are already relocating (See the article, to ossington and queen west and probably other places).
As for the pedestrian street without clubs, they think that'll stop the drunks? It may be worse if they have sports bars in the area with people getting tanked regardless. Meh. |
Circa failed because the city and AGCO delayed them (with the purpose of making them go under im sure) and they could never make their money back. The delay was the beginning of the end for them.
Ossington and queen west arent clubs. They are glorified bars.
Guvernment and Beta are clubs. |
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| Endlesswave |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Circa failed because the city and AGCO delayed them (with the purpose of making them go under im sure) and they could never make their money back. The delay was the beginning of the end for them.
Ossington and queen west arent clubs. They are glorified bars.
Guvernment and Beta are clubs. |
I'd take a glorified bar over a club anyday. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Endlesswave
I'd take a glorified bar over a club anyday. |
then you go there..ill go to guv or beta LOL |
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| Endlesswave |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
then you go there..ill go to guv or beta LOL |
I do those places in small doses. Not anymore man. I still have yet to check out that place you mentioned. lol |
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| PivotTechno |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
I was waiting for you to chime in now that im in this thread since you seem to be on a personal grudge mission. LOL! |
No grudge, I'm just trying to comprehend your personal philosophy.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
The business does not encourage fighting, why should it be charged?
As a libertarian i believe in putting blame where its due. And the blame lies on the shoulders of the idiots doing the fighting. |
From the sounds of their track record, they don't seem to do a very good job of discouraging it, either. And while the idiots doing the fighting should take full responsibility for their actions, every fire needs fuel, and the bar is providing it. So, until there's some way you can impart to alcohol-loving, overindulging patrons the necessity of controlling their intake while in public, it only makes sense that the bar shoulder some of the weight for what takes place in their establishment.
And while your account of AGCO goings-on may be at least somewhat accurate, your biases are most certainly showing. I've been witness to some pretty obnoxious behaviour in bars and nightclubs and many times over have also watched supposedly professional bar staff serving people well past the point of intoxication. As it's said, "there's three sides to every story - your side, my side, and the side of the truth". |
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| breathesteve |
| What's going to happen to Footwork when that big new condo right beside it is finished? Still another year or so away from finishing but frankly I'm a little worried for its survival :confused: Hopefully they are prepared for that. |
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