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who wants to fly with me? (pg. 5)
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| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by djshan
Failsafe, i promise i will reply to your post in a day or two. Right now im tired.
* comment below not directed at failsafe,
Today I was wondering if doctors have to become janitors prior to getting a job as a doctor. Maybe, to show passion of being a doctor, becoming a janitor at the doctors office might be a stepping stone?? |
Wow dude...
That's a pretty snobby attitude for someone who has to ask ppl to pay for his hours...
Good luck with your flying career...
I'm sure Air Canada will come knocking real soon... |
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| cammaxwell |
I just saw this thread now, I would LOVE to go up for a couple of hours!!!! Sounds like a great way to spend a Sat afternoon.
Question, I would love to bring my girl and baby boy but is that possible? Can a infant go up? Are there any safety concerns? They just flew to Van so I know he can fly, but I mean in a small aircraft like this?
(PM sent) |
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| VDub |
Cam he can fly in a baby seat but why would you want to risk your new baby in a small plane???
If it was me, I'd at least wait until he was old enough to appreciate the experience...
I found this to give you some info...
If I were you, unless he has his pilot certificate, I would not let him take the controls, lol.
Seriously, here are some considerations:
Children have the same gas containing spaces in their bodies as adults. Changes in pressure can, therefore, lead to the same sorts of discomforts and injuries in children as in adults.
While the anatomy of the eustachian tube (connecting the inside of the ears to the back of the throat) in children is slightly different to adults no-one appears to be certain whether this makes any real difference in the aviation. It may be that a child's eustachian tube is less likely to lead to ear pressure problems during flight than that of an adult.
A child is less likely to consciously clear their ears than an adult. Ear clearing is more likely to occur during sucking, crying, or jaw movement.
Most pressure related ear problems occur during descent, when the gas in the middle ear contracts. You and I will consciously 'pop' our ears during descent to avoid the pressure build-up and prevent ear injuries - a young child cannot do this. To avoid these problems it is wise to feed children during descent. This means their jaw and mouth are constantly in motion and their ears clearing.
In older children chewing gum is a good method of getting their jaws working and their ears clearing. The past airline practice of handing out boiled sweets before takeoff was of very little use - virtually no-one gets ear pressure problems during ascent - they'd have been much more use at the top-of-descent.
A child with a sniffle, a cold, glue ears or any other ear or throat problem is a different matter altogether. Such a child should not fly until they are completely well.
Gut pain and sinus pains are also possible in children during flight. Unlike ear problems these troubles tend to occur during ascent. While there's not a lot you can do about these problems I'm not aware of them causing any major difficulties. It would be prudent to avoid any foods known to cause 'gas' in your child and to keep a close eye on their comfort during flight, especially ascent and descent.
Another potential problem, especially during flight in pressurised aircraft, is dehydration. A child will dehydrate quite quickly compared to an adult. Mild dehydration can result in drying of the surface membranes of the mouth and ears. When dry these membranes, including the eustachian tube, won't function optimally and ear pressure problems might result.
Ensure that your child is well hydrated before and during flight. Certainly don't withhold fluids to avoid the inconvenience of wet nappies - an injured eardrum is a much greater inconvenience.
Feeding a child during flight can be a mixed blessing. While the sucking a jaw movement makes the ears more likely to equalize a quantity of air is invariably ingested with the feed and could, theoretically, lead to stomach discomfort during ascent. On balance the benefits far outweigh the potential problems.
Noise.
Children, like adults, can have their hearing damaged by excessive noise exposure. Exposure to high noise levels should, wherever possible, be minimized.
While GA aircraft are not terribly noisy (especially when compared to some of their military counterparts) their cabin noise levels are not insignificant. Your C172, cruising at 100 kts at 4000 feet, exposes you to approximately 91 dB(A) of noise.
Aircraft noise exposures are generally quite brief and unless the noise levels are extreme do not usually represent an undue hearing loss risk. Regular, long duration, noise exposures are a different matter altogether.
Noise concerns would usually not preclude a child from flying in an aircraft providing that some heed is taken to their hearing protection.
I wouldn't recommend earplugs but you might look around for child-size hearing protection earmuffs.
Air Sickness.
A child's susceptibility to airsickness usually peaks somewhere between the age of 4 - 8 years. It is lower in younger children.
All other things being equal: The earlier a child flies the more likely they are to acclimatize to the aviation motion environment and the less likely they are to be airsick. Some children, however, will get airsick (and/or carsick) no matter how early they are exposed.
Fear of Flying.
Regular exposure to aviation, especially when accompanied by parents enjoying themselves, should make flying a less threatening environment to children. From the families I know I've come to believe that the earlier a child is introduced to flying the more comfortable they are with the activity.
Of course if they are airsick or get sore ears every time they fly they aren't going to associate aviation with fun or pleasure.
Restraint and Impact Protection.
This is probably the most important issue concerning children in aviation. All passengers in an aircraft require 'adequate' restraint. What constitutes adequate restraint is not so straight-forward with infants and children.
My understanding of the regulations is that a child less than 3 years old and weighing less than 15kg can be 'adequately' restrained when held by a parent. While this requirement makes the life of airlines and commercial operators much easier I wouldn't recommend it. In the event of an accident involving significant impact forces it will not be possible to restrain a child held on your lap or that of your partner.
A secondary loop harness around the child's abdomen interlaced with the parent's harness will provide a greater degree of impact protection. These loops, however, have has concerns raised about their safety. It is conceivable that a child could suffer abdominal injuries if involved in an aircraft accident while wearing such a loop. The question has to be asked though - Would you prefer the risk of abdominal injuries to the risk of major head injuries during an impact?
In my opinion the best option currently available is to use an appropriate car seat / capsule to carry your child in the aircraft. This matter is addressed in the Civil Aviation Advisory Publication No. 235-2(0) of March 1992. Basically an Australian Design Standard approved seat is appropriate for fitting into your aircraft.
You should be aware, though, that the fitting of the seat/capsule to your aircraft must either involve no structural modification to the aircraft or be approved by CASA (CAR 35 I think). If your thinking about doing this I'd suggest spending a little time talking to your LAME about your placement and security options.
Older children can, of course, be strapped into the aircraft in an identical manner to adults.
In conclusion - There appears to be no overwhelming reason that an infant or child should not fly in GA aircraft providing a few sensible safety measures are observed.
Source(s):
http://chordline.com/answers
http://aeromedical.org/Articles/ointment_feb96.html |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Abercrombie
Do I remember asking you a few years ago if you take couples up discretely to join "the club"? ;) |
LOL AJ. This doesn't surprise me...What was the answer? ;) |
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| failsafe |
| quote: | Originally posted by djshan
Today I was wondering if doctors have to become janitors prior to getting a job as a doctor. Maybe, to show passion of being a doctor, becoming a janitor at the doctors office might be a stepping stone?? |
Doctors Intern. Lawyers Article. They both do those at severely reduced rates while they learn their trade. I learnt lots up in Pickle Lake both loading the planes, and riding along as crew man too. No it isn't exactly the same, but there are parallels in many other industries. |
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| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by failsafe
Doctors Intern. Lawyers Article. They both do those at severely reduced rates while they learn their trade. I learnt lots up in Pickle Lake both loading the planes, and riding along as crew man too. No it isn't exactly the same, but there are parallels in many other industries. |
While I was doing my three year crane apprenticeship, I spent 85% of my time working on the ground..
And making 50% of the full rate for the first year and 75 and 80% for the second and third...
We all have to pay our dues... |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
Ask a doctor how much they get paid when they graduate and how much they have to endure until they get a residency...
I'd say doctors and pilots have to go through similar trying challenges before they hit the gravy... |
Even those poor doctor graduate make decent coin, enough to pay the rent.
The figures seen earlier in this thread for pilots is theft and simply ridiculous. |
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| jad |
| quote: | Originally posted by djshan
Glad to hear that my friend. Feel free to take lessons (from me, lol) anytime. |
You give gliding lessons? How much do you charge? |
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| cammaxwell |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
Cam he can fly in a baby seat but why would you want to risk your new baby in a small plane???
If it was me, I'd at least wait until he was old enough to appreciate the experience... |
They actually don't allow baby seats on planes (well, the commercial ones anyway), as I said my boy just flew to Vancouver with his mom to visit family there so we looked into all that. So we are also well aware of all the info listed, but thank you for digging that up anyway I do appreciate it.
I was more worried about anything specific to being in a small plane like that. The only reason I would have considered taking the little guy was so that we could go as a family. But I think we would probably enjoy the experience much more just the two of us, so we wouldn't have to be taking care of him during the flight. I know his grandparents jump at any opportunity to take him for a afternoon anyway.
(I also wasn't as concerned about "risking" his life on the plane, if I thought we were risking our lives I wouldn't be having any of us go up) |
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| djshan |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
Wow dude...
That's a pretty snobby attitude for someone who has to ask ppl to pay for his hours...
Good luck with your flying career...
I'm sure Air Canada will come knocking real soon... |
So demanding better working conditions and pay is a snobby attitude?? |
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| djshan |
| quote: | Originally posted by failsafe
djshan: There's one supremely important aspect that I don't think you've grasped here. You're entire pre-airline career is a race. It's a race to acquire the right skill set, contacts, and flight time to become an interview candidate for the airlines. This might sound silly, or over dramatic but if anything it's an understatement. Your ENTIRE airline career will be determined by the age you're hired at. It will determine when you get your captain's upgrade, it will determine how many years you're stuck working every weekend and every holiday. It will determine vacation, routes flown, and to an immense extent your career earnings.
So while I see your naive distaste for ramp jobs, they can provide you to a fast track for your airline career. I'll use my own life as an example. I too started out as an instructor, also one who turned up their nose at ramp work. One day after about 8 months of Instructing I talked to a friend in Pickle Lake. That friend I had discounted as being stupid for taking a ramp job 8 months prior when we both graduated school. After all, I was flying, and he was freezing his balls of loading freight. Well it turns out that in his first 6 weeks of flying after the 8 month wait, he'd already logged more time than I had in 8 months. Infact, nearly all the guys up in Pickle on the Caravan were doing 1200hrs in 11 months and timing out with a month left in the year. It took me about a month to get my head around that. A month later I was in my Toyota Corolla headed up highway 599 to Pickle Lake. I worked the ramp, and it opened doors to me that will take years more for you to open. To give you a sense of how much it sped things up. One of my class 1 instructors and assistant CFI's at the flight school I worked at had started there 4 years prior to my start at instructing. I arrived at Air Canada a few months before he did. There were 2 others who I instructed with there too that work at AC now. They had a 2 and 3 year jump on me instructing, and I arrived at AC a few months after the 2 year head start and 1 year after the 3 year head start.
All that said, the north just might not be right for you. I certainly saw my share of cream puff city boys come up and then leave a few weeks later. It's not an easy life up there, and that's precisely why it's a short cut. If it was easy everyone would do it, and there wouldn't be the same opportunities. I did eventually make it back down south. Prior to Air Canada I was a Check captain and sim instructor at Air Georgian. I also sat on the hiring board for some interviews there too. Again and again, I saw the same story repeated with the interview candidates and resumes there. The guys who were coming back down south from the north were about 2-3 years younger than people who had stayed down in toronto.
To give you an idea of how much money that equates to. You'd be lucky to make 25k/year instructing in the GTA. So 2 years at 25k = 50k earned. A senior 777 captain at Air Canada in the last 2-3 years of his 30 career is making about 240k/year. So 2 years at 240k/year = 480k - 50k instructing = 430k ahead. When the math is presented like that it's pretty sobering. You may think that you're taking the high road, but you're really just screwing yourself. That calculation doesn't take into account the accrued career earnings as you'd always been on higher paying types 2 years ahead of the other guy. In reality that figure could very realistically be closer to a million bucks over a career.
Anyway good luck with things. Your first 5-10 years in the industry are going to suck terribly. If you make it to the airlines you'll be handsomely rewarded for your suffering though. |
Hi Failsafe,
With respect to the first paragraph of your post, i agree with most of what you say. I was only stating my opinion about the career path we have to follow to get into the cockpit. I just think it is unneccasary to go through all those tough times, and i feel like we get taken advantage of, becuase the airline knows how desperate we are to fly.. so they will make us do whatever they want. If you look at other nations, like asian nations for example, pilots get hired directly at 200 hours (although, i dont think its safe, they should have a few more)... but if they can do it, why cant we? they dont have to work ramp jobs or be aircraft groomers... I totally respect you for doing what you had to do to get to air canada, congratulations, and hopefully you get on the 777 left seat soon (if thats what you desire... i know thats what i want, lol). With respect to working weekends, overnights, and so on... when it comes to flying, im available 24/7, as long as i get paid for it (even if its minumum wage), and if im well rested. As a matter of fact, my dream is to fly long international routes, and hopefully i can skip the short runs, haha.
2nd paragraph,
Interesting to hear your story. Well, Im not in a rush to get to air canada. There are more places to go than just air canada. I got my businesess running and making good money at the moment. I fly on the side (instruct). I have plans to teach IFR this spring, summer. When i do apply to air canada, i want to be properly qualified.. I got a nice email today from a company in calgary who is considering me for an interview when they hire. They pay very good. Wish me luck :D
3rd paragrapgh,
You are 100 % right, the north is not for me. I was told my many people before, that i should go apply up north... not a chance. One of my collegues used himself as a reference for me with a company he works for, i rejected. The only way i would fly up there is if thay pay good and safe working comditions, otherwise i cant go up there. I have alot of proof that im a hard worker, i wont mention details here. The only time my bosses had a hard time with me was when i wanted to quit, one of them even tore my notice in peices.
4th paragraph.... to be continued........ (exhausted) |
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| djshan |
| quote: | Originally posted by jad
You give gliding lessons? How much do you charge? |
Unfortunately I dont. Reasons:
1. My flight school does not have gliders.
2. I am not allowed to have another teaching job outside my flight school, its part of our agreement.
However, we do simulate gliding in our airplanes.. its called forced landings (exercise #22).. its not 100 % realistic, but, it is very similair to what happens when your engine quits on you. I dont mind going up to show you how it looks like.
For flying lessons, its 200/hr |
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