|
does homeopathy work? (pg. 4)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Redd |
and yeah, it's also dangerous because IDIOTS tend to use it as an alternative to real medicine
it's like astrology and ghosthunters, delusional crap |
|
|
| SalSa |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
homeopathy is ing bull and anyone who says otherwise is a ing idiot. if homeopathy worked everything we understand about physics would be wrong. |
Well then it must be a load of rubbish! |
|
|
| GoSpeedGo! |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
if homeopathy worked everything we understand about physics would be wrong. |
Why speak in absolutes? I think it's perfectly realistic to assume that some of the scientific theories that we now consider as correct are actually wrong, simply because we still don't have the means to see (parts of) reality for what it really is. After all, not so long ago people thought that Earth was flat (because that was all they could derive from their observations back then), and those who proposed the planet is actually round were called heretics by the majority.
"The silliness of thinking you might fall off the edge of a flat Earth if you sail too far is not related to a misunderstanding about what would happen to a ship if it sailed over some precipice, but rather, to the concept of the Earth itself."
But those were medieval people we're talking about, right? This couldn't happen to us, we now think that our civilization is closer to understanding the world than anyone before. Well, I think it's a bit arrogant. Saying that "homeopathy does not work EVER, and whoever believes the opposite is an IDIOT LOL" is akin to mindless witch-burning.
I'm by no means saying that homeopathy surely works. I tried it, and it worked for me. It helped me where allopatic medicine apparently couldn't. If placebo or the whole hollistic approach (treating patient like a human and not like a machine) was a factor, I can't tell. But there are clearly some things in play here that should be closely examined, and not radically dismissed as nonsensical witchcraft. |
|
|
| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
Why speak in absolutes? I think it's perfectly realistic to assume that some of the scientific theories that we now consider as correct are actually wrong, simply because we still don't have the means to see (parts of) reality for what it really is. After all, not so long ago people thought that Earth was flat (because that was all they could derive from their observations back then), and those who proposed the planet is actually round were called heretics by the majority.
"The silliness of thinking you might fall off the edge of a flat Earth if you sail too far is not related to a misunderstanding about what would happen to a ship if it sailed over some precipice, but rather, to the concept of the Earth itself."
But those were medieval people we're talking about, right? This couldn't happen to us, we now think that our civilization is closer to understanding the world than anyone before. Well, I think it's a bit arrogant. Saying that "homeopathy does not work EVER, and whoever believes the opposite is an IDIOT LOL" is akin to mindless witch-burning.
I'm by no means saying that homeopathy surely works. I tried it, and it worked for me. It helped me where allopatic medicine apparently couldn't. If placebo or the whole hollistic approach (treating patient like a human and not like a machine) was a factor, I can't tell. But there are clearly some things in play here that should be closely examined, and not radically dismissed as nonsensical witchcraft. |
homeopathic 'medicines' are the flat world, in your analogy though you nub: LOL
just like they found the earth is round, they found real medicines that actually work.
its lovely it worked for you though :) |
|
|
| Nrg2Nfinit |
it is nonsensical witchcraft, and you were dooped speed. Luckily for you naiveness was the catalyst for engaging a placebo effect.
The mind has alot of power over the body. If your mind thinks your body feels well, then sometimes it just might (albeit the premise behind this is that you have to be an idiot to think that the homeopathic medicine is actually doing something.) Sometimes, with regards to placebo effect, ignorance is power. It's your mind playing tricks on you boy! |
|
|
| GoSpeedGo! |
Also, this article is wonderful.
| quote: | Mahendra Gundawar & 6 others
Chandrapur, India
Three dead, seven blinded
December 14, 2007
Gundawar was a homeopath who sold a new tonic, recently introduced on the market, that was supposed to reduce fatigue. He himself died, along with several of his patients. Several others were blinded, and other cases occured elsewhere in India. |
First, classical homeopathy doesn't treat individual diseases like "cold" or "fatigue", its aim is to heal the whole person, to activate the natural healing process. I don't think anyone can surely tell what was being sold there, but if we say that it really was some diluted homeopathic remedy, then it apparently had a strong effect on those people. Yes, it was negative but it contradicts the statement that "homeopathy does nothing and it's all in your head". If it's able to kill, it should be able to heal. |
|
|
| GoSpeedGo! |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit
it is nonsensical witchcraft, and you were dooped speed. Luckily for you naiveness was the catalyst for engaging a placebo effect. |
I love how you're so sure about that.
Anyway, if it was 100% placebo, then it should absolutely be explored much more in today's medicine, because if people have the power to cure themselves even from chronic diseases, then where's the need for all those pills? |
|
|
| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
Why speak in absolutes? I think it's perfectly realistic to assume that some of the scientific theories that we now consider as correct are actually wrong, simply because we still don't have the means to see (parts of) reality for what it really is. After all, not so long ago people thought that Earth was flat (because that was all they could derive from their observations back then), and those who proposed the planet is actually round were called heretics by the majority. |
Actually people have known that the Earth is round for thousands of years. Atlas was depicted holding a spherical Earth in Hellenistic sculptures, and by Roman times they'd even worked out its dimensions to a remarkably accurate degree. Those who believed the Earth was flat were the uneducated and ignorant who took the world at face value without recourse to scientific understanding. A very appropriate analogy.
It's possible, although unlikely, that homeopathy works. Your comment that we wouldn't need pills and medicine if the placebo effect were so powerful is misguided for two reasons. Firstly, the psychosomatic effects of pills are an important part of their mechanism. Secondly, homeopathy often doesn't work at all, but believers in alternate medicine all-too-often fall suffer from that old problem: they're superstitious. In other words, they have an extremely selective interpretation of data and form baseless associations between events. There have been a great many scientific experiments demonstrating the human capacity to invent causality out of thin air through selective memory.
But that's not important. What's important is this: even if homeopathy works, it definitely doesn't work for the reasons its practitioners claim. Homeopathy is a particularly strong affront to science because it habitually butchers science to try and give itself plausibility. The fact that so many believers in homeopathy accept these ramblings about energy and matter reconfirms my original point: believers in "alternate" medicine are usually incredibly ignorant. Combine that with the aforementioned superstition and you have that exceptionally potent strain of wrong-headedness that sends PKC spiralling into apoplectic rage. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SalSa
Well then it must be a load of rubbish! |
well, let's think about that for a second. on the one hand, we have a well-developed (if imperfect) understanding of the world as far as physics goes, and that understanding is tested regularly and bears results everyday. experiments are reproduced etc. on the other hand we have the concept that water has a "memory" of what's been dipped in it, even after diluted to the point where its just water. this type of treatment has born exactly zero results or medical utilisation. for anything. ever.
so, the homeopathic remedy produces no results and contradicts a bunch of science that has, for all intents and purposes, been proven. do the ing math, .
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
Why speak in absolutes? |
because what i said is absolutely true.
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
I think it's perfectly realistic to assume that some of the scientific theories that we now consider as correct are actually wrong, simply because we still don't have the means to see (parts of) reality for what it really is. |
which is no reason at all to believe in unsubstantiated nonsense.
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
After all, not so long ago people thought that Earth was flat (because that was all they could derive from their observations back then), and those who proposed the planet is actually round were called heretics by the majority. |
this is just a myth. there was never a great belief in or acceptance of a flat earth. the greeks calculated the circumference of the earth before christ was born. peoples could see the shadow of the earth on the moon etc. there might have been some pockets where flat earth opinions existed, but its not true that the idea ever dominated science.
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
But those were medieval people we're talking about, right? This couldn't happen to us, we now think that our civilization is closer to understanding the world than anyone before. Well, I think it's a bit arrogant. Saying that "homeopathy does not work EVER, and whoever believes the opposite is an IDIOT LOL" is akin to mindless witch-burning. |
if you want to play apologist for ideas that have been proven to be wrong, knock yourself out. homeopathy is bull and its a ing insult to man's intelligence that a bunch of charlatans and con-men are defended by well-meaning hippies like yourself. we've spent thousands of years throwing off the shackles of superstition and now we have all these new-age faggots trying to embrace the dark ages.
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
I tried it, and it worked for me. |
no, it didn't.
well, unless of course you're saying that this was the first time in your life you ever tried drinking water. and if so, i will admit that it would probably make an impact on your general well-being.
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
But there are clearly some things in play here |
and its so "clear" that
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
I'm by no means saying that homeopathy surely works. |
you can't even state that you believe it yourself.
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
that should be closely examined, and not radically dismissed as nonsensical witchcraft. |
homeopathy has been tested and has been proven to be ineffectual. what more do you need? its not "radical" to dismiss ideas that are quite obviously nonsense, but it is radical to embrace disproven ideas that also contradict established science
there is no debate. its as supportable as witchcraft. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
First, classical homeopathy doesn't treat individual diseases like "cold" or "fatigue", its aim is to heal the whole person, to activate the natural healing process. |
oh, so he wasn't a true scotsman? its all so clear to me now.
| quote: | Originally posted by GoSpeedGo!
I don't think anyone can surely tell what was being sold there, but if we say that it really was some diluted homeopathic remedy, then it apparently had a strong effect on those people. Yes, it was negative but it contradicts the statement that "homeopathy does nothing and it's all in your head". If it's able to kill, it should be able to heal. |
im sure any substance diluted with water from some indian cesspool could prove fatal. water cant have a "memory". its not possible. its not not up for debate. you're wrong. i'm right. i'm off to bed. |
|
|
| Meat187 |
Every time people try to defend some outrageously stupid position by saying that all the principles of physics, technology and common sense that contradict them might just be wrong, simply because in the past there have been instances where science made revolutionary new discoveries - commonly Einstein and Galileo are named here, I throw up a little in my mouth. Of course everything that contradicts their crap is probably just wrong and might be disproven soon, so it's totally legitimate to believe in [insert bull here].
That argument is so retarded it makes my head hurt. Especially since the stuff they cite, like Einstein, have hardly refuted all science up to that point but mostly extended or generalized the views. |
|
|
| GoSpeedGo! |
I think I like this stance on the problem the most.
| quote: | Recently, a lab in South Korea reported a phenomenon previously thought to be impossible. Two chemists, Kurt Geckeler and Shashadhar Sanil, at the Kwangju Institute of Science and Technology observed a strange clumping of molecules in diluted solution.
Until this study was done, it had always been believed that dissolved molecules simply spread further and further apart. However, during this event, they found that the molecules not only clumped together, but the clumps got bigger as the solutions were more dilute [13].
The obvious connection to homeopathy was made, suggesting that clumps might “interact more easily with bio tissue” [13]. However, this allopathic ‘cause and effect’ explanation doesn’t answer all the questions. It answers nicely how the body takes in the remedy, but it doesn’t address the energy exchange. If homeopathic remedies acted on a strictly chemical level, then, according to Kent or Hahnemann, their actions would not be curative. They would simple impose a stronger disease on the vital force.
“If we break matter in smaller and small pieces (electrons, protons, neutrons, hadrons, quarks, etc.) eventually they cease to be an object in our reality”. [20]
“In considering simple substance we cannot think of time, place or space, because we are not in the realm of mathematics nor the restricted measurements of the world of space and time, we are in the realm of simple substance” [ Kent]
Should we ever find a scientific answer to how homeopathic remedies work, I believe, like many, that it will come out of quantum physics. I believe this, because in quantum physics, it is a given that the sub-atomic world does not behave in ways we expect. Quantum physics is a study of energy and it’s effects on matter and that is a good way, in my opinion, to approach the study of homeopathy.
Why is it that sceptics demand that homeopathy be explained in ways that are not demanded by orthodox medicine? Drug trials are not a study of how a drug works, rather, a study to show that the drug has a desired effect. Many common over the counter drugs, aspirin being a good example, still pose a mystery to us. We know that taking an aspirin will cause the body to react in certain ways, but we don’t know the exact mechanism. Yet, sceptics demand to know how homeopathy works. This is a shame, because until a scientifically verified (and recreated) study on the exact mechanism employed by homeopathic remedies is accepted, the countless success stories showing that homeopathy works will be considered anecdotal. |
http://www.ursula-starks-browning.c...thy%20works.htm
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
But that's not important. What's important is this: even if homeopathy works, it definitely doesn't work for the reasons its practitioners claim. |
Well yeah, and I think we should look into this. The problem with western allopathic medicine is that it is too materialistic and symptom-oriented. I really am far from being a new age hippie, but there's no doubt that there is much more to physical health than just some chemical processes in the body; there are social and psychological determinants of health as well. Allopathic medicine may be strictly scientific but it doesn't offer a complex view on health, and sometimes doesn't even cure. I know quite a lot of people who are periodically being prescribed antibiotics for their problems yet they keep coming back again and again. Basically, these people are constantly sick, dependent on this medication that provides short relief, but (apparantly) can't deal with the real underlying cause.
I guess my point is that even objective scientific research isn't enough when we're talking about health of a given individual. It obviously doesn't validate homeopathic practices - what I'm saying is that we should examine what homeopathy and other alternative therapies do right, and try to include that in common practice. It may be such a simple thing such as communication between doctor and patient.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
oh, so he wasn't a true scotsman? its all so clear to me now.
im sure any substance diluted with water from some indian cesspool could prove fatal. water cant have a "memory". its not possible. its not not up for debate. you're wrong. i'm right. i'm off to bed. |
Either you say that homeopathy is completely inert, or that it has strong effects on human health. You can't claim both, that's just lazy faux-skepticism.
This is what bothers me about all this. People are so obsessed with the idea that homeopathy = bull, that they don't even notice they contradict themselves. |
|
|
|
|
