Originally posted by Beatflux
Can you name one well known work that defies every single point?
If your talking trance then..
You might not agree it has a melody, but it does the same job just as good and no less, so why aint it one?
cryophonik
quote:
Originally posted by Beatflux
Can you name one well known work that defies every single point?
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.
That's not the point. There are very few melodies that defy every one of those points and I never said or implied that they do break every one of them. Many melodies can and do fit into the narrow scope defined by the author, but they don't have to. Also, I'll restate my point in all caps this time: A MELODY IS MORE THAN THE SUM OF ITS NOTES. Restricting yourself to some arbitrary and off-base rules you found in a book or on the Internet is not going to help you write better melodies. Can you name one person who sits down with their big book of music rules and methodically goes about writing melodies by deciding whether or not to stay within the written rules? Of course not.
In response to your question above, which I've already answered (not only here but to a few dozen music theory and composition professors), how about YOU take the time to find your own examples. You have a brain and presumably 2 ears, 2 eyes, 2 hands, and keyboard. So instead of wasting your time constantly posting inane and oversimplified BS from other websites, how about you sit down and spend some time figuring out some classic melodies on your own. It's the time-tested way of learning music - doing it, not reading about it on the Internet.
Kysora
quote:
Originally posted by cryophonik
Restricting yourself to some arbitrary and off-base rules you found in a book or on the Internet is not going to help you write better melodies.
Easy, cryo. Some of the tips are useful, I don't know what else you can ask for here. We all know they're not rules and we shouldn't have to start scrambling to "prove" that you don't have to follow a single one of these tips to write a good melody.
I don't know why people get so touchy over advice relating to songwriting. I tend to do whatever sounds good in my own music but not everyone works that way, and not everyone has a wealth of theory knowledge to refer to. I can see little tips like these helping a few people, so let's just let it do that instead of turning this into another long-winded argument that goes absolutely nowhere.
derail
I concur. As general guidelines, the list was fine. (as "rules", no)
There aren't many threads about actual composition/songwriting in this forum, let's not shoot these threads down when they pop up.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by cryophonik
Also, I'll restate my point in all caps this time: A MELODY IS MORE THAN THE SUM OF ITS NOTES. Restricting yourself to some arbitrary and off-base rules you found in a book or on the Internet is not going to help you write better melodies. Can you name one person who sits down with their big book of music rules and methodically goes about writing melodies by deciding whether or not to stay within the written rules? Of course not.
In response to your question above, which I've already answered (not only here but to a few dozen music theory and composition professors), how about YOU take the time to find your own examples. You have a brain and presumably 2 ears, 2 eyes, 2 hands, and keyboard. So instead of wasting your time constantly posting inane and oversimplified BS from other websites, how about you sit down and spend some time figuring out some classic melodies on your own. It's the time-tested way of learning music - doing it, not reading about it on the Internet.
These are just guidelines to study and keep in mind when writing a melody. It's difference between being in control of your creative techniques, or just slopping paint on the canvas and praying that you will paint something good.
Expanding melody writing skills is like anything else, you have to practice those individual skills so you become good at executing them.
Using melody writing techniques is no different than using side chain compression or creative filtering. You do not have to use these techniques, but as an artist isn't it better to know about them?
I do not really care to wag my dick around in the dark hoping that its going to end up somewhere good, I would rather know what I am doing to achieve a specific result.
cryophonik
I'll just repeat it one last time, then I'll leave it alone. The best way to learn melodies is by immersing yourself in the study of melodies, not by following some canned set of rules or guidelines that unnecessarily restrict your creativity. Screw the guidelines and learn to hear what works and what doesn't by listening and figuring out what you like about a certain melody, why it works in one context, and not the other. Yes, it's more difficult, but it leads to better results, as evidenced by the fact that the great songwriters aren't sitting at their computers thinking to themselves, "hmmmmm....if I start with an E, what note do my guidelines say I should/shouldn't play next?" They're writing melodies based on what they hear, which is a result of repeated listening and singing or playing of good melodies, most of which would break one or more of those "rules", so why put yourself at a disadvantage right off the bat?
Actually, a better way to think about it IMO is to turn it around and think, not in terms of what notes shouldn't I use, but in what instances should I use e.g., chromatic/non-chord tones and look for opportunities to expand your pallette. Again, that comes from listening and learning what works in melodies and what doesn't.
Anyway, sorry if I ruined your thread, but I will always push musicians to screw the shortcuts and take the time to learn their craft. The shortcuts are what lead to all the formulaic crap that we all bitch about so much. Carry on.
derail
That's a fair point, and closer to how I learned. I listened to a heap of melodies, and wrote a lot of melodies. A set of rules on a page isn't the place to start, but can be helpful when someone has already written a few melodies and has some idea of what's involved. Taken on their own, outside of personal experience, I can't imagine they'd be very helpful.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by cryophonik
I'll just repeat it one last time, then I'll leave it alone. The best way to learn melodies is by immersing yourself in the study of melodies, not by following some canned set of rules or guidelines that unnecessarily restrict your creativity. Screw the guidelines and learn to hear what works and what doesn't by listening and figuring out what you like about a certain melody, why it works in one context, and not the other. Yes, it's more difficult, but it leads to better results, as evidenced by the fact that the great songwriters aren't sitting at their computers thinking to themselves, "hmmmmm....if I start with an E, what note do my guidelines say I should/shouldn't play next?" They're writing melodies based on what they hear, which is a result of repeated listening and singing or playing of good melodies, most of which would break one or more of those "rules", so why put yourself at a disadvantage right off the bat?
I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, more like increased artistic control. After you know these "rules" you can either break them or follow them. It's no different than learning music "theory."
The guidelines aren't really meant to supplant individual study.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
If your talking trance then..
You might not agree it has a melody, but it does the same job just as good and no less, so why aint it one?
Look up "melody" in the dictionary.
cryophonik
OK.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by cryophonik
OK.
college
skyhunter
I think it all depends on what style you're working with. This is interesting to say the least and is good to know why something works as opposed to how to make one that works. It's good for studying music and applying some of it. Of course there will be exceptions (psytrance, some death metal), but for the most part it's accurate (especially for pop music, I hear Owl City absolutely rape this in all of his songs).
