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Ever work with someone who just doesn't get it, musically speaking......
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| Vecchio |
Hey forum,
I've lurked the forums from time to time for production tips and what not and would like to thank everyone for their contributions first and foremost.
My problem right now is... I produce with, and live with as well a guy who the longer i get to working with him, the more i am convinced he just doesn't get it. Now, he can lay down some nice drum tracks. We aren't big trance guys, stuff we do is more breaky and beat drive generally. But when it comes to melody or chords... any musical arrangements other than percussion, it just sounds like garbage most of the time unless it's a very simple part.
Anyway, i bring this up, because i was wondering has anyone ever worked with someone like this before? Thing is is he's totally convinced that he is making genius stuff even though his notes will be everywhere.... and he gets mad when i tell him otherwise. "I don't need no stinkin' music theory" is his general attitude... which ok maybe if you're making some weird obscure atonal music... might work but that's not the intent... Anybody relate? |
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| Zombie0729 |
sounds like you guys should work on stuff separately. Without a doubt i've had WAY better results when i've spent time on a project, sent it over to someone else, they spent THEIR own time on it and so forth. I don't always have great results when i'm sitting side by side with someone.
If the music part bothers you then you should start the project musically and let him fill in the gaps w/ what he's good at. He's right you "don't" need music theory but if what's he's making isn't resembling a song then most likely he needs some hand holding |
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| Vecchio |
Thanks for the input guys,
Yeah I can see maybe working separately would help, in fact, some of the best tunes we have done usually start with me making the main aspects of it and then sending it his way and he'll help with the beat and arrangement. I am horrible at building a song and he is good at that, plus he went to school for audio engineering so he does have a good idea when it comes to mixing. We are both very good at percussive elements, where the melodic part used to be a huge weakness but i've stepped it up in the last few years and have to to say i've written some pretty interesting pieces.
Problem is, is sometimes he'll come up with something that just does not go and is convinced it is good and fits perfectly.... he'll ask his friends/fam but i think we all know most of the ones closest to us are sometimes afraid to critique us. He's my best friend and i'ts hard for me but i've been doing it more and it has been causing some problems, but he needs to hear it. His ego is massive, and telling a guy like him he's not good enough or needs improvement is hard. It's just very hard working with someone who has a chord in say A minor... and writes a hook in something that doesnt' even fit any scale and is just a mess.... I know some people like atonal music but not many, myself included.... i don't mind a few "bum" notes but when every note just seems wrong i can't imagine myself doing a live show with it and being proud.... which is the goal in a few months. Kind of a live PA thing...
We did have a talk though, and came to the agreement that i'll handle the more melodic aspects and he can worry more about song structure because that seems to work the best. So hopefully this works out for the best, I wonder if this is how a lot of production duos work? One handles certain aspects and the other handles others.... |
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| KilldaDJ |
| if it sounds then you are fighting a losing battle |
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| Inner Sanctum |
This sounds like a situation where you need to post your tracks on some forums and let objective/unbiased third parties tell him what they think of his melodic ideas.
| quote: | Originally posted by KilldaDJ
if it sounds then you are fighting a losing battle |
He speaketh the truth. |
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| skyhunter |
I have a similar problem in an ambient project I work in from time to time.
I am the music theory and beat guy, and do sound design for all the leads and such, and the other guy does blur pads and only blur pads. I end up tuning and resampling everything he sends me to get it in time and in key and such. It bugs but yea... |
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| Kysora |
..then why work with him?
You guys choose to produce with these guys, if they bother you just quit working with them and do your own thing. Let them do the same. |
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| skyhunter |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kysora
..then why work with him?
You guys choose to produce with these guys, if they bother you just quit working with them and do your own thing. Let them do the same. |
Mostly because he has a pretty big following and he makes really, really nice blur pads. |
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| Vecchio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kysora
..then why work with him?
You guys choose to produce with these guys, if they bother you just quit working with them and do your own thing. Let them do the same. |
Well I see what you're saying, problem is is that we live together and have been best friends for a while.... he's the only other person I know that shares my love for EDM... we've lived in a small town in upstate ny for most of our lives although we moved to a semi big city.
Anyway, he does bring some things to the table, but his lack of judgement when it comes to melody/harmony just frustrates the hell outta me... i think his problem is his ego gets in the way and he can't admit to himself or anyone else that what he did might indeed be . I did get through to him today, told him basically let me take over that aspect and he can concentrate on the building of the songs and hopefully this proves to be much more productive... because there is no way in hell i could go on stage and seriously play our stuff with some of the melodies he's had a part in. he gave me some spiel about orbital not having any idea about music theory blah blah blah... which i have no idea is true or not. They obviously don't need it if they don't, but that doesn't mean it's not helpful... I don't even know much but that amount i've dabbled in has helped me tremendously. I should upload some examples but i'd sort of feel like a bad friend for doing so haha. I was wondering if maybe i'm just so stuck in my ways that i'm not seeing something that he is....
Now, i'm no Beethoven but i think i have at least the basics covered and generally have a good ear for something being "off"... especially for not having any formal musical training. I realize sometimes a bum note gives a song "character" sometimes you gotta go with feeling but, most songs i've studied the midi files or whatever, they follow a certain scale and most of the elements are based around it. I realize i probably sound like a layman and i am but i know enough to know you can't just throw random notes into a song and call it music... guess you could because it's open to interpretation but not too many people are going to find it pleasing. |
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| studiobob |
| yep, got a client at the moment who is 'self taught' he writes the songs and melodies. i record the singer and mix the tracks. the only thing you can really do in this situation is go with it and subtley change things where you can so it works better. Often they dont know why it doesnt work so they just pretend that it does. the result is often quite demented music - he dosnt understand that in a scale of c major - you cant really have 1 or 2 sharps and flats in the melody line. I do but if you point it out they get defensive and that causes issues. involving payment, which sucks :( |
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| Kysora |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vecchio
i think his problem is his ego gets in the way |
You think so?
Your friend sounds like a tool and quite honestly I'm embarrassed for him if he calls himself a musician. |
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| Excess |
well, i've had the opportunity to work with 3 different artists (2 currently) since i started producing, and i'm the 'no music theory' guy. never played an instrument, never took a class, do everything by guessing at it :X however, i hope i'm not THAT guy. from the start i've always been very careful to make sure whatever i put in my projects sounds in key. perhaps your partner is just tone-deaf.
sometimes, i KNOW what i'm putting together is out of key, so i'll note that in specific when sharing the project file or preview with my collaborators who have more experience on the music side of things. ill explain why i have it there (i.e. the melody should flow in this direction and that bunk note or chord is a placeholder for whatever actually works). this is strictly for the sake of moving things along
at the moment the two i work with at the moment have both been really easy going about this, usually just touching up the melodies i write (ill admit i have gotten slightly better over time, i still struggle a bit with chord progression though). however, the first person i worked with did not go as smoothly. he had the nasty habit of completely re-writing whatever i wrote to be more fitting to his musical preference entirely. i would send him a basic concept to work with, and he would end up sending me back an entirely different song with a 180 degree turn in feel. this made me realize that it comes down to outlook and end goals for the individuals - so always be straight forward with your intentions
to sum it up and end my personal rant, it sounds like the ego problem is getting in the way of the progress of your music. talk with him about it and if he wants to do his thing without you, let him - it's probably better off that way. |
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