cancer is illness, so is diabetis. addiction is not. what kind of society is saying "awwwww" and helping them out by providing stuff for them?
C'mon, really? That comes across as a reactionary, uneducated opinion; given current medical models, the onus would be on you to prove that addiction is a conscious choice:
But as long as we're taking your route, I say we cut off supply to all the passive, doughy, tv-watching-for-hours-on-end, drive-my-car-everywhere, alcohol, cigarette, fast-food, soft-drink, sugar, salt and fat junkies out there - they're a far greater burden on our health system than any heroin or crack addict.
(and no, I don't mean that - they need as much help as anyone does)
cammaxwell
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
em, i say tag every single one of them, track their dealers, arrest them and dealers. cant say problem solved but it would be much more effective than providing safe haven to shoot up.
lol....that's what North American law enforcement has been doing for decades. How's that been going? Problem solved yet? No?.....well I bet the crime and addiction rates must have reduced then right? oh....no?
Exactly.....real effective idea all right.
So since that theory has been tested and failed, don't you think it's time for a different approach? I'm truly sorry to hear about your brothers, but don't you wish they had some access to better help? Maybe it would have changed something? Hell, at least if they were in a safe place while using they never would have choked on their own vomit? Don't you see that?
geroin
quote:
Originally posted by PivotTechno
classic interview
Xavier Moriarty
quote:
C'mon, really? That comes across as a reactionary, uneducated opinion; given current medical models, the onus would be on you to prove that addiction is a conscious choice:
i smoked weed, a lot. when it started interferring with my everyday life i quit. was it easy? no, but i did it anyways.
i did drugs, a lot. same as above. the itch is still there but i simply ignore it.
im a borderline alcoholic. took me years to learn to actually enjoy a pint or 2 without drinking myself comatose.
im pretty sure im not better than any of those junkies but i still quit it all without whining about my rights. did i see any of those problems as an illness? of course not.
i see you use those words (reactionary, uneducated) quite often and not just on this board, your writing stile is quite unique. so i want you to understand im just giving you my opinion, my side of the story.for better or worse its mine. i read yours, im giving you my rebbutal without talking to you like youre 2 years old and i expect the same in return. do not dissrespect me again.
quote:
But as long as we're taking your route, I say we cut off supply to all the passive, doughy, tv-watching-for-hours-on-end, drive-my-car-everywhere, alcohol, cigarette, fast-food, soft-drink, sugar, salt and fat junkies out there - they're a far greater burden on our health system than any heroin or crack addict.
i almost completely agree with you on this, except the last part. domestication is one thing that scares me the most and something should be done with it sooner rather than later. my views are probably seen as way too radical by some but when it comes to the human race im disgusted. were not better than what we eat, not anymore. i have yet to hear about hungry dude cracking somebodys skull to get a few bucks for food while crackhead will do it, happily.
obesity is an illness too, right? yet we dont see free gyms for fat kids.
quote:
I'm truly sorry to hear about your brothers, but don't you wish they had some access to better help? Maybe it would have changed something? Hell, at least if they were in a safe place while using they never would have choked on their own vomit? Don't you see that?
the thing is they had the best help they could get, they had their parents and friends with them. they were not sick, i spend years and years with them , day to day basis. they chose a different reality, which sucked something fierce at that time, and.... . not a day goes by that i dont ask myself could they be saved and, in truth, the answer is always no.
one of my stores is right next to a beer store. every day, rain or snow, theres 20ish of them there at 9:30. just waiting for 10, just waiting to get boozed up. none of them works, none of them gives a about anything around them. once, one of them asked me for 5$, "help a brother out". when i asked him "dude why dont you find a job and do something with yourself" you know what he said? "its easier this way".
and me, he was right. right, but not sick !!!
anyways, that was just my 2 cents. thousands of kids die each and every day of hunger and our govermnet provides for junkies. thousands of Canadian kids cant afford 3 square meals a day and our goverment chooses junkies over hungry kids. what about their rights?
and then i remember, native Canadians still didnt get clean, drinking water.
quote:
"Harper also refuses to sign the UN Declaration designating clean water as a human right."
- april, 2011
lol, rights !!!
PivotTechno
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
i smoked weed, a lot. when it started interferring with my everyday life i quit. was it easy? no, but i did it anyways.
i did drugs, a lot. same as above. the itch is still there but i simply ignore it.
im a borderline alcoholic. took me years to learn to actually enjoy a pint or 2 without drinking myself comatose.
im pretty sure im not better than any of those junkies but i still quit it all without whining about my rights. did i see any of those problems as an illness? of course not.
i see you use those words (reactionary, uneducated) quite often and not just on this board, your writing stile is quite unique. so i want you to understand im just giving you my opinion, my side of the story.for better or worse its mine. i read yours, im giving you my rebbutal without talking to you like youre 2 years old and i expect the same in return. do not dissrespect me again.
I realize you're just giving your opinion, but your opinion is 100% emotional and founded on the premise that if you did it, everyone else should be able to as well. And while it's great that you were able to discipline yourself to give up or reduce your vices, not everyone else is you. Have you watched the video with Dr. Maté? The majority of the hardcore addicts, the ones that you propose tagging, grew up under incredibly abusive circumstances, both physical, and among females, nearly always sexual. Do you really think that being hard (let's face it, what you propose is disrespectful) on people who have already led a very painful existence - and not by choice - is the way to go?
And I am by no means calling you uneducated, but your opinion would be easier to digest if you gave the other side's explanation a fair listen. A number of contributors to this thread have disagreed with the "not with my taxpayer money!" opinion and offered factual information based on years of case studies to back up that disagreement, only to be rebutted with "Well, this is how I feel!" Not much to work with, there.
How do you know your current feelings won't change if you educate yourself further on the subject? What's the harm? Considering you still "get the itch", and describe yourself as a borderline alcoholic, bringing yourself to a broader understanding of the nature of addiction might be of some personal benefit.
I know it helped me.
Xavier Moriarty
quote:
I know it helped me.
i respect that. at the same time, realising that i am not sick helped me, a lot. i educated myself quite a bit on the subject, that was the main reason i was able to kick my bad habits out of my life. in my opinion thats all they are, habits.
its all about perspective and you and me are on the opposite sides of spectrum which is just fine. this society teaches you that add is a serious problem and it should be treated with pills. i had soccer and plenty of outdoors activities. pedophiles here get 2-3-4 years in jail, sometimes cut for time served/good behaviour. back home they were jailed for the rest of their natural lives. incredibly abusive circumstances?? i (and almost all of my countryman) dodged bullets and bombs at 13 (literally), grew up in a lawless country where you had to have a coupon to buy a piece of bread, more often than not went to bed hungry. left everything behind forever and made something outta myself. by mate's theories i should be one ed up, dangerous, damaged individual. any maybe i was, for a while. but i worked on it and it changed. you change certain habits and circumstances and voila.
like i said, far from that im a better, stronger person that any of them. this society has created an army of extremely spoiled, domesticated people that dont wanna ever try to work on themselves because... lets face it, they have rights and somebody else will do if for them.
change a few things, make a set of rules and see if it changes or not.
all im trying to say, there is way too many important things to be overlooked in favour of this. no matter what all those studies say,or what doctors say, or what government thinks, if youre willing to help out a junkie over a hungry kid.... well something is wrong there.
thats not emotional, thats just right. wouldnt you agree??
Elendil
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
i respect that. at the same time, realising that i am not sick helped me, a lot. i educated myself quite a bit on the subject, that was the main reason i was able to kick my bad habits out of my life. in my opinion thats all they are, habits.
its all about perspective and you and me are on the opposite sides of spectrum which is just fine. this society teaches you that add is a serious problem and it should be treated with pills. i had soccer and plenty of outdoors activities. pedophiles here get 2-3-4 years in jail, sometimes cut for time served/good behaviour. back home they were jailed for the rest of their natural lives. incredibly abusive circumstances?? i (and almost all of my countryman) dodged bullets and bombs at 13 (literally), grew up in a lawless country where you had to have a coupon to buy a piece of bread, more often than not went to bed hungry. left everything behind forever and made something outta myself. by mate's theories i should be one ed up, dangerous, damaged individual. any maybe i was, for a while. but i worked on it and it changed. you change certain habits and circumstances and voila.
like i said, far from that im a better, stronger person that any of them. this society has created an army of extremely spoiled, domesticated people that dont wanna ever try to work on themselves because... lets face it, they have rights and somebody else will do if for them.
change a few things, make a set of rules and see if it changes or not.
all im trying to say, there is way too many important things to be overlooked in favour of this. no matter what all those studies say,or what doctors say, or what government thinks, if youre willing to help out a junkie over a hungry kid.... well something is wrong there.
thats not emotional, thats just right. wouldnt you agree??
I don't think it's proper to sum up an position by posing a secondary hypothetical situation (if you're willing to help a junkie over a hungry kid..." followed by a question to which an answer in favor is essentially guaranteed. The overall issue was not addressed.
This isn't about an issue of kids going hungry vs. drug addict safety. This is about whether or not we have an obligation to ensure the rights (the definition of which were on the table) of those who have an accepted mental illness. It is a tricky situation for many reasons.
You seem to have a concise opinion on whether or not these people have an illness or not. That's fine - you're welcome to it - but you can't expect an unsupported opinion it to be worth much weight - much like I couldn't expect my own opinion to matter much in a physics arena.
The challenges you have faced and, by the sounds of it, your victory over your personal circumstance is to be commended man - honestly - good for you for being able to pull yourself above what could destroy many others. However, to assume that everyone else should be perfectly capable of walking your same path is overly simplistic and - quite frankly - shows a huge lack of empathy and compassion to the plight that others endure with less success (often at the cost of their own lives).
Many of these individuals have lived anything but the privileged, extremely spoiled life you seem to be projecting onto them. They've lived hard, cruel lives - born into suffering, without the framework of support needed to attain their potential. Due to this, they've found themselves in a bad - bad - situation, and often have little faculty left with which to find a way out. I find it relevant to ask: during your time of peril (in your past, back home) did you have parents - or loved ones - who helped you in your time of need? Many of these people don't and have never.
Often, addiction is just one of many illnesses with which these people suffer. Many are self-medicating due to primary mental illness (schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, etc).
These aren't their "habits" - at least not in the belittling sense that you've implied - these are the end result of many factors pressing down on a life to which your judgment is irrelevant.
I'm a parent. The question I want to be asking is "how can we ensure that these people - who will exist for as long as pain and suffering do - are operating in a manner safest to my child's and my life in a city/society/state. If a strong body of scientific evidence says that supplying a safe place to go about their business improves that safety without question (and outweighs the cost), I'm in favour.
I feel you that there are many injustices going on right now. There are hungry children. There is violence against women. However, there are other individuals and groups working every bit as hard on those issues as well. People working to make a positive change in the way our society deals with these topics. It would be irrational and irresponsible to pass over this matter simply because other issues exist at the same moment in time.
PivotTechno
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
all im trying to say, there is way too many important things to be overlooked in favour of this. no matter what all those studies say,or what doctors say, or what government thinks, if youre willing to help out a junkie over a hungry kid.... well something is wrong there.
thats not emotional, thats just right. wouldnt you agree??
Are you asking my opinion, or are you asking me to back up your own?
I don't agree, not in the least - Elendil summed it up quite succinctly in both the first and last paragraph of his last post.
Yohan
So... shall we begin the decriminalization of hard drugs now?
And in continuing with the theme of this thread, a group of doctors are arguing that the public is 'morally obligated' to give CPR to heart attack victims and wants the govt to force people to take CPR classes.
Why should I have to help someone who had a heart attack? Its their own damn fault! If they wanted someone to help them maybe they should have thought about choosing not to have a heart attack first.
