|
Drums, theory and learning 'why'
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Normie |
Hi all,
Before you choke, this isn't the regular "How do I make a kick/snare/hat" or "What plug-in will make me sound like Tiesto/Armin" thread. Making them isn't my dysfunction. Properly using them is.
I was reading the Book sticky thread the other night and noticed that while there are a few great choices posted on learning synth and mix theory, there is really not much-nothing on Drums. I was talking with Cryo and he recommended this for a thread topic. I came to Electronic music as a guitar guy and am learning this end of things as I go. I have found a lot of good info on synth/key stuff, but Drums are another story, at least for me. Most you Tube vids either show making a basic 4x4 type pattern or something so deep into acid jazz that you need a bag whatever they're on to fathom it. Where does a total drum noob even begin? Not the vsts etc, the actual drum theory? Beyond the basic math and beat/pattern subdivision, I'm lost.
Cryo recommended the Drummers Bible and that's now on order, but what/how else do you all recommend one go about learning to 'drum' electronically'? I have no desire to learn playing real drums (physically speaking outside a practice pad/midi controller or something for basic ideas), but I most definitely need to learn what/how when it comes to theory and applying it to a sequencer. I don't want to use the 'prerecorded loop' method in my tracks as I want to do my own stuff with my own or choice of sampled sounds.
What I lack is the knowledge to use them effectively for the purpose. Aside from the Drummers Bible, what would you all recommend for vids/books etc to learn how and most importantly, "why" when it comes to drumming/patterns/beats etc?
Side note FWIW:
I use Reaper for a DAW and it's ReaSamplomatic sampler, along with the freeware TS-808 and ERS 909 vsts which I'm happy with ATM and in the case of the VSTs, sound pretty incredible/flexible to me. I also have a couple Zennheiser drum sample packs (Trance and sub boom) along with a bunch of random stuff off the net to use...plenty of material to work with. I also have Jupiter 8V and Zeta 1 and 2 for my primary synths, both of which can do some decent drummage themselves and the associated filters/vsts etc to shape sounds. Reaper is pretty good for chopping things up and sequencing them/midi-ing them any way you like. So I have the tools and the knowledge to use the tools, just not the knowledge to make a good beat with them.
Any and all help appreciated. |
|
|
| Beatflux |
I wish there was a rhythm or drum theory, but there isn't anything as practical as there is for harmony and melody.
You can always just copy a drum loop and use your own sounds.
In general, most people people on the forums don't know jack about the musical aspect of production, as much as the technical side that is more cut and dry. |
|
|
| Normie |
That's what I was afraid of.
Would buying a copy of Recycle, a bunch of loops, hacking them up into their patterns/parts and studying/playing with THAT head me in the right direction or even be worthwhile? I know this probably sounds stupid to people with experience, but like I said, I'm lost when it comes to drums. I know I can just listen to it, but a visual aid seems like it would speed the process up. Plus, it wouldn't hurt having Recycle on hand anyway. |
|
|
| djshire |
| In this day and age, most people don't know much when it comes to synth drums. Most people just use samples with some modifications. The first thing I learned when I got my first setup was how to make a drum, hi-hat, tom tom, and snare in Logic ES2, and while I understand how synthesis works and what not, I really don't know a whole lot about drum synthesis as a whole. |
|
|
| Energy_3 |
| Like any instrument, i think you need to start at the bottom with the theory and practical to get a good basis for the understanding of what your actually doing. I think! Though, unless you like to muck around through 'trial n error' which can be time consuming though at times fun, thats your other option. |
|
|
| Stu Cox |
The drum equivalent of scales are probably drum rudiments... although that's basically just a list of all of the rhythms you can think of and how a real drummer would hand them.
Still useful though - if you set the velocities of your synth drum hits according to how a drummer would perform the equivalent rudiment, you can give your drums a more 'live' feel. For example, when hammering out quavers, the right hand will often be slightly louder than the left (for a right-handed drummer). Similarly, a roll isn't actually a series of equal-volumed hits, it's normally done with a double bounce per hand, so the 2nd hit is slightly quieter than the 1st.
I know this doesn't quite answer your question... you want to know what sounds and rhythms will give certain feels. Of course the obvious answer is to both play around with sounds yourself and listen around to other tracks and pay attention to the drum programming.
There's a certain amount common to synth theory actually, certainly in terms of the sounds you select. In general, long reverberated sounds will feel more laid back than short sharp ones. Low frequencies have less energy than higher frequencies, certainly in terms of creating a sense of urgency; even big energetic basslines often have a lot of treble on them.
Notice that most deep house uses really low kicks and only a smattering of top-end high hats, while electro at the same speed uses sharper kicks and much more high-mid and high range percussion to carry more energy.
I've got a few theories about what gives certain rhythms a particular feel, but it's quite hard to explain so I think I'll save that for another day!
I'm afraid I don't know of a decent reference book for this sort of thing, this is just stuff I've picked up myself, but hopefully that'll give you some ideas. |
|
|
| Normie |
Hi Stu/Energy/and all,
Thanks for the input. At 170 views, and so few responses, I think that a lot of us really are in the dark on this subject. Well, looks like it's the Drummers Bible/listen/study loops route.
That and drooling a lot, scratching myself publicly and delivering pizza like a real Drummer would ;)
Here's a CalVp type question/thought/point to ponder on the philosophy side... Since EDM is driven by the beat, and so few of us apparently 'get it' when it comes to drums, it really makes me wonder now if that is a good part of the reason that people feel that their own and the music of others posted here is 'mediocre'. Is that the 'spark' that's missing from a lot of it? Just good drumming? |
|
|
| Looney4Clooney |
I was a session drummer for years.
There are tons of books , perhaps more than harmony but much of performance practice with any instrument is hard to encapsulate in a book.
I wouldn't say it is just drums EDM producers don't get, it is the concept of groove. Having a generation of people not know music that isn't quantized , or heard a band live results in music that is produced well but has absolutely no soul.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xgSwYWSDtdgC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&l=220
this is the one book you could consider the drum bible but it is rather useless if you don't know how to use it. |
|
|
| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
I was a session drummer for years.
|
Just curious, how do you input your EDM drums? Do you play them in live? On your keyboard, or with something like V-Drumss or an MPC-style controller? |
|
|
| JEO |
| If you were forced to give one prime example of an edm track with a good groove, what would it be? |
|
|
| Energy_3 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
I was a session drummer for years.
There are tons of books , perhaps more than harmony but much of performance practice with any instrument is hard to encapsulate in a book.
I wouldn't say it is just drums EDM producers don't get, it is the concept of groove. Having a generation of people not know music that isn't quantized , or heard a band live results in music that is produced well but has absolutely no soul.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xgSwYWSDtdgC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&l=220
this is the one book you could consider the drum bible but it is rather useless if you don't know how to use it. |
It seems highly reconmended that book, I tried to find a free pdf download but no go, |
|
|
| Beatflux |
I don't feel like writing a bunch of stuff, so here's just two things:
Length is really important to a sense of groove. If the samples are too short it'll sound aneamic, if they are too long it will sound bloated. You have to adjust each sample to fit according to the BPM of your sound. Shifting the length of a sample can also impart a sense of groove. |
|
|
|
|
