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Specific detailed advice on mix.
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| tehlord |
I'm struggling a little with getting that proper uplifting trance sounds at the moment (it's my latest pet peeve) and i've narrowed it down to 2-3 specific areas. I've put the post in here due to the specific nature of the query!
1) Stereo width. I'm starting to suspect there's something i'm missing with creating a wider stereo spread on certain elements of the mix (leads and reverbs) without resorting to doubling up channels or nasty stereo wideners.
2) Mid high frequency content. I've noticed that there's a LOT of mid-highs in current EDM tracks, but for the most part it's not harsh. I'm suspecting there's some multiband compression happening at the mastering stage at about 3-7khz?
3) Kicks. Yes, that old chestnut. I've never really been too bothered A/Bing, but the gap between what I can produce and the thudding impact of some commercial stuff is too large for my liking. I know the subject has been beaten to death but I need to investigate further, I'm fairly happy with the method of an attack portion and a sub portion to a kick, but I can't seem to reproduce the chest thumping mid-low that the likes of Tyas achieves, it bothers be :p
This is what i'm working on now, and the issues I've raised above are a direct response to what I'm not happy with in this track (which is still at a very early stage obviously, it's just a mix exercise really. Soundcloud has borked the encoding as usual so it's available for download should you have the time. :-
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| Looney4Clooney |
aight,
no mercy cage match tho.
You need to double that clap with something dryer, have the dry one center and the wet one using the sides or hass if you aren't a fan of m/s.
No bass. And when it comes in , well , the part of the track everyone loves is that one part when the bass and minimal percussion is there. You don't have that. I know that isn't mixing but ya.
Ok alot of the things that irk me are more arrangement. So you have all these layers and right now , i don't see the point. Now say , when that main pluck arp comes in , have that play a 1 bar pattern, and then have it replied by that other one you had going as the main pluck one kinda dies out via delay or something.
Ok , you have these other parts right in the breaks that need to come out. Why else are they there, ditch the main arp for a bit , and make room for that new sound.
Once the bass is in, the clap has that awful over compressed sound that i can't stand. Thats why i suggest doubling it with a non compressed like not part of your percussion buss just to make sure the percussion stays meaty.
Hihats are taking alot of space. You are not making good use of panning. Basically you have a bunch of on top of other stuff masking everything.
My advice, build to the bass drop by using small fragments, sort of presenting all the material. Now at 0:45, kill everything but the bass, the dry clap/ snare, and thats it. A nice bass that plays off the kick will work great. And thats what people love. That bass ass part where it is just the bass and the percussion kicking ass.
The arps need to be more syncopated. I mean right now , there are no points of syncopation which makes it move groove what ever you call it less.
You only need 1 hihat. You have all this 16th arp stuff going on, it gets lost, it isn't effective.
You need to work on your use of reverb. It isn't that you have too much, its just well at times i don't see the point and at other times, well its ok but you need something else to make it present. Like the clap. That is with the kick your foundation. If you are going to use reverb, well do as i mentioned.
Honestly, it isn't the mix that needs work. The arrangement is just not happening. Not to mention you are sounding a little 2003. The last thing you posted was way better. This is Robby Rox rolling bassline bull.
I do like your name and image. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by tehlord
3) Kicks. Yes, that old chestnut. I've never really been too bothered A/Bing, but the gap between what I can produce and the thudding impact of some commercial stuff is too large for my liking. I know the subject has been beaten to death but I need to investigate further, I'm fairly happy with the method of an attack portion and a sub portion to a kick, but I can't seem to reproduce the chest thumping mid-low that the likes of Tyas achieves, it bothers be :p
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"the secret" of a good kick is actually a good click. If that part is nice and solid, the entire kick can boom. If the attack portion of a kick is weak, then you can't have a thumping kick no matter what you do to the tail.
But the attack portion can also mask the tail portion.
If you have too much in the 300-500 range, it can mask the low end of the kick.
Kicks start out in the 10k range, and ends up in the 30-50Hz range, so part of the frequency band is louder than the rest, it will mask the bands around it with pre and post masking. |
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| Evolve140 |
| The wet clap makes it sound a little dated, but overall good production. Just needs something to make it stand out. Bass could be fuller, seems a bit laid back. Kick could also be a bit punchier. |
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| MSZ |
kind of been having the same problem 2) mate, was contemplating starting a thread. ive been working on my mastering skills a lot lately, im speculating the problem lies with sample/sound choice and sharper sound design skills. then again, i was taking a look at some of the big-name trancey/ prog stuff, and i just find the mastering awful especially in the high-end. i think yours sounds good to my ears. also some masters out there are distorting a bit, and im not into that kind of ethically.
what do you think of this master tehlord? never mind the track, i think theres some dissonance lol.
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| TranceElevation |
That kick sub layer is in total discordance with its mid to high brother. (The rest would become unmixable with such a mess down there)
To achieve the result you're after fisrt you need to balance the layers in terms of volume.
Play them both in a loop and turn the volume of the higher one UP to the max.
Press stop to let your ears recreate for a second.
Now play them again and start gradually turning the volume down of the high kick until you merge it completely with the low one. It should sound as 1 united animal.
Now send them to a bus. Take the eq and decide how much you wanna cut from the very low end. Use the high area to determine the overall clarity of the kick...and use the sweeping method to find and remove unnatural sounds (boxiness etc.)
Now take the compressor.
Treshold very high, ratio from 5 to 8, hard knee, attack up to let important part of the transient, release to determine snap/tail and control.
This is pretty much.
Of course, if you make wrong choices at the source consider these as empty words.
You must pick the right kicks, you must eq them properly.
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
Honestly, it isn't the mix that needs work. The arrangement is just not happening. |
This is it.
The track starts nowhere, builds to nowhere and ends nowhere. |
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| tehlord |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
aight,
no mercy cage match tho.
You need to double that clap with something dryer, have the dry one center and the wet one using the sides or hass if you aren't a fan of m/s.
No bass. And when it comes in , well , the part of the track everyone loves is that one part when the bass and minimal percussion is there. You don't have that. I know that isn't mixing but ya.
Ok alot of the things that irk me are more arrangement. So you have all these layers and right now , i don't see the point. Now say , when that main pluck arp comes in , have that play a 1 bar pattern, and then have it replied by that other one you had going as the main pluck one kinda dies out via delay or something.
Ok , you have these other parts right in the breaks that need to come out. Why else are they there, ditch the main arp for a bit , and make room for that new sound.
Once the bass is in, the clap has that awful over compressed sound that i can't stand. Thats why i suggest doubling it with a non compressed like not part of your percussion buss just to make sure the percussion stays meaty.
Hihats are taking alot of space. You are not making good use of panning. Basically you have a bunch of on top of other stuff masking everything.
My advice, build to the bass drop by using small fragments, sort of presenting all the material. Now at 0:45, kill everything but the bass, the dry clap/ snare, and thats it. A nice bass that plays off the kick will work great. And thats what people love. That bass ass part where it is just the bass and the percussion kicking ass.
The arps need to be more syncopated. I mean right now , there are no points of syncopation which makes it move groove what ever you call it less.
You only need 1 hihat. You have all this 16th arp stuff going on, it gets lost, it isn't effective.
You need to work on your use of reverb. It isn't that you have too much, its just well at times i don't see the point and at other times, well its ok but you need something else to make it present. Like the clap. That is with the kick your foundation. If you are going to use reverb, well do as i mentioned.
Honestly, it isn't the mix that needs work. The arrangement is just not happening. Not to mention you are sounding a little 2003. The last thing you posted was way better. This is Robby Rox rolling bassline bull.
I do like your name and image. |
Well first of all this isn't even remotely what i'd call an arrangement, it's just an exercise is super clean punchy mixing (which I don't think that last track really achieved) which hasn't reached it's full potential yet. It's little more than a loop at this point.
I can't argue with what you're saying, it's all pretty spot on.
The thing about the reverb is weird. I know how to use a reverb, I know what all the buttons do etc but there's definitely something amiss with my use of it in this style of track. I'm wondering if I should just high pass and duck the crap out of it and set it all to huge.
And yeah, the clap is rubbish :p
| quote: | Originally posted by Beatflux
"the secret" of a good kick is actually a good click. If that part is nice and solid, the entire kick can boom. If the attack portion of a kick is weak, then you can't have a thumping kick no matter what you do to the tail.
But the attack portion can also mask the tail portion.
If you have too much in the 300-500 range, it can mask the low end of the kick.
Kicks start out in the 10k range, and ends up in the 30-50Hz range, so part of the frequency band is louder than the rest, it will mask the bands around it with pre and post masking. |
Yeah I agree about the attack, but I think there's more to it than that. There's a quality about the best kicks that you feel in your chest, in the same way you do in a club but at much lower volumes. I've yet to identify the source of that part of the kicks. It's certainly not done with boosting a kick from a sample pack at a certain frequency imo.
| quote: | Originally posted by Evolve140
The wet clap makes it sound a little dated, but overall good production. Just needs something to make it stand out. Bass could be fuller, seems a bit laid back. Kick could also be a bit punchier. |
Ah yes, but I'M dated don't forget ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by MSZ
kind of been having the same problem 2) mate, was contemplating starting a thread. ive been working on my mastering skills a lot lately, im speculating the problem lies with sample/sound choice and sharper sound design skills. then again, i was taking a look at some of the big-name trancey/ prog stuff, and i just find the mastering awful especially in the high-end. i think yours sounds good to my ears. also some masters out there are distorting a bit, and im not into that kind of ethically.
what do you think of this master tehlord? never mind the track, i think theres some dissonance lol.
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Your track isn't available.
I know what you mean though, although a lot of stuff you hear is really harsh, a lot of it is nicely done too. It's not just a boost to the 10k region to give a track air, there's definitely something in the mid high's too that's well controlled and never harsh. I'm sure it's there for added volume, and perhaps I shouldn't fret over it but i'm just A/B'ing mine against the rest for comparison. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| i knwo you asked for mixing advice, but the issue is arrangement. You want it to be punchy, you need to start with the foundation. Sort of like say tracking is to mixing. in, out. |
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| tehlord |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
i knwo you asked for mixing advice, but the issue is arrangement. You want it to be punchy, you need to start with the foundation. Sort of like say tracking is to mixing. in, out. |
You're talking about stuff that's being put together rather than the structure and layout of the track I assume?
If so, I heartily concur.
I still heart 2003 though. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
ya,
it is hard to be punchy when you have all this stuff going on in such a non organized manner.
Can you post just the percussion and bass line. |
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| tehlord |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
ya,
it is hard to be punchy when you have all this stuff going on in such a non organized manner.
Can you post just the percussion and bass line. |
Will do, although I really need to sort the sub bass first. I've fiddled with the kick and hats a lot since as well.
The sub is e though, it's like a fat man groaning pitched down an octave. |
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| Raphie |
Ok, if you're looking for the old TYAS, Simon Patterson & Paul Miller type stuff, the synths need to be more raw, not so sweet and smooth
also you miss the hyped reverse sucking clap between every 3 and 4
further i sort of agree with L4C, but to put that into perspective YOU have a distinct sound as well, I would try to capitalize on that, do what gives YOU goosebumps, not focusing to much what's "lacking" compared to what others did before. |
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