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String/Brass/synth/Sample layering
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| Normie |
The thread on strings and my own recent playing with blind layering made me wonder if anyone here has any "general tips" for layering synth strings with samples. Right now I am using Z3ta and J8V along with a couple samples from the Sonatina freebie library. I know it's a large subject and am not expecting any miraculous shortcut answers or anything. I am getting some cool (to me anyway) results, but I'm sure I'm reinventing the wheel when I don't need to be, though it is a good learning experience. So any general things to look/watch for/consider? I'm not after any sound in particular or great realism.
But it must be warm, analogue and sidechained ;)
You Tube seems to have the market cornered on how to make teH wikidZ supersawZ but nothing I have found on this question. Same for layering brass and basic ensemble stuff. Not a lot in the TA stickys I found either. The Boy in a Band tuts have some good and varied string pad stuff, but again, no sample layering. |
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| chris marsh |
hi mate
funnily enough i have been experimenting with something similar!
Firstly i wanted to create a pad sound similar to the airwave patch in nexus but synthesize it myself (its a very warm, deep, supersaw type patch)
Got close with the jp8000 supersaw detuned, mixed with a pulse with a bit of PWM on osc 2 and a bit of white noise. Long release amp setting and a bit of positive filter mod
I found that layering strings and choir for the highest note of the chords (they were some kind of minor 9th chords) worked really nicely, And a tip i got from somewhere else is to double up the root of the chord an octave down to thicken up. (the chord was done in the jp8000 with samples highest notes only)
i also layered some sparkling bell type sounds, looped in kontakt, slightly pitched up - over the top and this sounds nice, a litte bit vangelis esque (though not as good of course)!
Then if you buss them all to the same group and effect together/sidechain etc
I dont know if thats the kind of thing you were talking about, but would be only to happy to post up this rough idea if it would be any help |
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| Normie |
Sorta, but I can still learn from it anyway so no problem, and thanks ;) I love the JP Airwave pad. It's my favorite thing in synths. Since I'm only a couple years into this, I havent got sick of the supersaw yet unlike some of these jaded bastages ;)
I was thinking along the line of non-supersaw/more Vangelles-like stuff you mentioned, EQing/compressing sample/synths together, what types of string or brass samples blend better (low/high pitched?) or any generalized things to look for. Tips for making layered brass 'growl', envelope or filter prefrences...just whatever really. I know there's a million ways it can be done for different reasons/sounds. Really just a 'what do you do' kinda thing.
Right now for my experiments I have several tracks bussed with a couple synths and samplers with no additional VST verb and just Density 2 bus comping them together so I can hear the more 'raw' stuff going on. Then I just switch different samples and adjust Jupiter 8V and Zeta 2 patches accordingly.
But again, it's just random tweaking to see what happens. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
A colleague of mine was a synth nut where he would refuse to use sample libraries and the results he would get were just staggering. Using, synth 1, he could pretty much get that low brass ensemble heard in the new Batman Series. It sounded somewhat not real but not synthetic like a patch from one of those old roland soundbanks. It sounded just different. Like that cello you hear in the Dark Night ( he joker theme) , that sound is a cello but so mangled that it isn't a cello, nor some fake sounding wanna be synthethesis and the result is just something that grabs your attention.
One of the biggest issues with sample music is that every kinda sounds the same. Nobody can do orchestral music ala Williams so everyone is doing this epic zimmer wannabe bull using the same sound libraries and they just all sound the same. Boring.
But when you make your own sounds, you stand out. Even using something like WIVI. It is a physical modelling orchestral plugin but you can use it like a synth. You can edit about 100 parameters of an instrument, you can create like a textcure with 20 trombones, 20 horns, any other instrument you want to fill in certain partials and the result is not really orcehstral but not synthetic.
I do think that learning regular orchestration is a good start. The topic , about 100 years old i terms of actually being able to find material printed about it other than the few masters that could do it is really additive synthesis. The reasons why you would double certain instruments , and not others, at the time, well they talked about colour but now, it is obvious that alot of it served a pretty technical sound engineering purpose.
The only advice i can give you is to experiment. And to be good at sound design, you need to spend the time. The guy i knew did it 5 hours a day everyday. I mean he made music too but he was obsessed about sound. He was eventually hired just for sound design. Now he works full time just making sounds. So you can imagine how good you get when you do it 12 hours a day every day for years. |
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| Normie |
Extremely interesting.
I'm willing to put some decent (which for better or worse I have the) time into it since I love learning and love the sound itself. That said, I'm not married to 'needing' to use samples; and doing it completely the way you described for your friend would be just fine by me. I'm not married to either a 'perfect' synth string or real string sound.
I've got the SOS synth series articles now and will keep studying the string brass stuff. Apparently I'll have to start doing some serious reading on the hows/whys traditional instruments work, but Orchestration! Gulp. Well, I know there's no shortcuts so what has to be has to be. Slow and steady.
Thanks for the reply and info, greatly appreciated.
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
A colleague of mine was a synth nut where he would refuse to use sample libraries and the results he would get were just staggering. Using, synth 1, he could pretty much get that low brass ensemble heard in the new Batman Series. It sounded somewhat not real but not synthetic like a patch from one of those old roland soundbanks. It sounded just different. Like that cello you hear in the Dark Night ( he joker theme) , that sound is a cello but so mangled that it isn't a cello, nor some fake sounding wanna be synthethesis and the result is just something that grabs your attention.
One of the biggest issues with sample music is that every kinda sounds the same. Nobody can do orchestral music ala Williams so everyone is doing this epic zimmer wannabe bull using the same sound libraries and they just all sound the same. Boring.
But when you make your own sounds, you stand out. Even using something like WIVI. It is a physical modelling orchestral plugin but you can use it like a synth. You can edit about 100 parameters of an instrument, you can create like a textcure with 20 trombones, 20 horns, any other instrument you want to fill in certain partials and the result is not really orcehstral but not synthetic.
I do think that learning regular orchestration is a good start. The topic , about 100 years old i terms of actually being able to find material printed about it other than the few masters that could do it is really additive synthesis. The reasons why you would double certain instruments , and not others, at the time, well they talked about colour but now, it is obvious that alot of it served a pretty technical sound engineering purpose.
The only advice i can give you is to experiment. And to be good at sound design, you need to spend the time. The guy i knew did it 5 hours a day everyday. I mean he made music too but he was obsessed about sound. He was eventually hired just for sound design. Now he works full time just making sounds. So you can imagine how good you get when you do it 12 hours a day every day for years. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| well you seemed to be interested in orchestral sounds. But really, I think sound design is really crucial for any composer/producer. The reason orchestration improved was that there were only so many ways to make things differently. A big part of that was sound which explains the huge change in orchestration at the turn of the 20th century. They were just as obsessed about sound as say an EDM producer should be. They just had less tools. |
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