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Arrangement & Form: Discussion
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View this Thread in Original format
| Evolve140 |
Rules: (there are no rules)
1. off if you're an idiot
2. Your opinion does matter.
3. If you feel informed or educated on the topic, please contribute.
4. Mum and pop can't afford your ritalin script. Bye,, K thx. |
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| Evolve140 |
| This is actually just a preconceived arrangement, I want L4C to elaborate on form and arrangement for the rest of us. |
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| meriter |
| i'm glad i'm not the only one that posts drunk |
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| Evolve140 |
| God dammit, please stop doing that. |
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| Deillon |
I always have an intro and an outro and the main part in between.
I don't know about you guys hurr durr |
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| Looney4Clooney |
i've answered this before with examples and detailed look at motives and how everything in a track has some form of genesis that has a purpose.
What i mean is that the biggest mistake most people make, and i think they make it because you don't really learn this sort of analysis of music unlike classical where you analyze pieces and you see how a 3 note motive, can be the building blocks of a 1 hour work. You notice how well organized everything is. How the key relationships are not random add to the work so that your 1 hour of music has a reason to be 1 hour.
But what i notice with most producers is that they really have no mastery of form, which according to alot of the greats , is composition. The form is the body , which supercedes the theme, and instrumentation. Logically, like say building a house, it makes sense but i do understand that you can't get too obsessed with it. The end result are a ton of tracks that just seem like someone randomly but in elements not because the work needed them, but for other reasons or no reason. This preset sounds cool. I heard this sound in another track. It isn't to say these are not ways to brainstorm ideas but you should be able to tell someone why you have something in a track. When you know why you have something, your writing becomes less a collection of ideas that lack direction, to something that is intentional well thought out and always more personal.
This concept is universal , writing, theatre, film .... again most people don't notice it and because they don't really see that layer, they can't really use it in their own work.
Good form, is a work that has a reason for being what it is. Every note has a logical reason for being there. You try to use thematic material and with that , you make your track cohesive, void of material that is out of place and forced, and balanced. When you don't, you get a track that i would say is inferior. Again, most people would not notice, but like watching a film and all of a sudden there is this deviation in aesthetic that serves no end, it is weak writing.
I think keeping this in mind is invaluable, i do realize that like most movies or books, it will go unnoticed by most, but starting to think of a track as an entity that isn't full of unintended pastiche, use of presets that are not what perhaps the track needs, but rather what you have access to because you are a lazy . You could get away with awful form, but those that understand the concept, their work is just better, there is more to appreciate and i think that if you want to be a better producer/writer, it is something you should pay attention to.
I mean when people think form is an intro and an outro, that is form i suppose but more so the end result of form. A competent producer would have a reason for that. But if you are just doing it because well, other tracks do it, that would be poor form.
But i think the topic , as important as i think it is, you could, and most people do, have a track full of ideas that just have no reason being there but as long as the drop is huge, it is a good track. People have lost the ability to see music on more than one level. So yes, i think it is important, i think anyone that is serious about writing, would find it important, but it is something that is more about your integrity , and no so much how well your track will do. Ideally, you can make accessible tracks, that do have this other dimension so that there is something for everyone.
I think is much like say harmony. Well much more important as harmony to me is less important than form because it is a surface level detail that in my opinion with the right knowledge is the easiest part of writing. But just like theory really doesn't do much for EDM producers, form is also one of those things, that to understand and master, it takes more work than most would want to spend. And sometimes, no training has an advantage over poor training. |
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| pointPi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
i've answered this before with examples and detailed look at motives and how everything in a track has some form of genesis that has a purpose.
What i mean is that the biggest mistake most people make, and i think they make it because you don't really learn this sort of analysis of music unlike classical where you analyze pieces and you see how a 3 note motive, can be the building blocks of a 1 hour work. You notice how well organized everything is. How the key relationships are not random add to the work so that your 1 hour of music has a reason to be 1 hour.
But what i notice with most producers is that they really have no mastery of form, which according to alot of the greats , is composition. The form is the body , which supercedes the theme, and instrumentation. Logically, like say building a house, it makes sense but i do understand that you can't get too obsessed with it. The end result are a ton of tracks that just seem like someone randomly but in elements not because the work needed them, but for other reasons or no reason. This preset sounds cool. I heard this sound in another track. It isn't to say these are not ways to brainstorm ideas but you should be able to tell someone why you have something in a track. When you know why you have something, your writing becomes less a collection of ideas that lack direction, to something that is intentional well thought out and always more personal.
This concept is universal , writing, theatre, film .... again most people don't notice it and because they don't really see that layer, they can't really use it in their own work.
Good form, is a work that has a reason for being what it is. Every note has a logical reason for being there. You try to use thematic material and with that , you make your track cohesive, void of material that is out of place and forced, and balanced. When you don't, you get a track that i would say is inferior. Again, most people would not notice, but like watching a film and all of a sudden there is this deviation in aesthetic that serves no end, it is weak writing.
I think keeping this in mind is invaluable, i do realize that like most movies or books, it will go unnoticed by most, but starting to think of a track as an entity that isn't full of unintended pastiche, use of presets that are not what perhaps the track needs, but rather what you have access to because you are a lazy . You could get away with awful form, but those that understand the concept, their work is just better, there is more to appreciate and i think that if you want to be a better producer/writer, it is something you should pay attention to.
I mean when people think form is an intro and an outro, that is form i suppose but more so the end result of form. A competent producer would have a reason for that. But if you are just doing it because well, other tracks do it, that would be poor form.
But i think the topic , as important as i think it is, you could, and most people do, have a track full of ideas that just have no reason being there but as long as the drop is huge, it is a good track. People have lost the ability to see music on more than one level. So yes, i think it is important, i think anyone that is serious about writing, would find it important, but it is something that is more about your integrity , and no so much how well your track will do. Ideally, you can make accessible tracks, that do have this other dimension so that there is something for everyone.
I think is much like say harmony. Well much more important as harmony to me is less important than form because it is a surface level detail that in my opinion with the right knowledge is the easiest part of writing. But just like theory really doesn't do much for EDM producers, form is also one of those things, that to understand and master, it takes more work than most would want to spend. And sometimes, no training has an advantage over poor training. |
Well said, man. Having a good form on the composition is something to think about.
The only complaint I have is that you never really explained how one can acquire the knowledge whether an element fits into a context or not. You say that I need to think about what ingredients go well together, but what ingredients go well together?
I know apple and cinnamon fits together. I know that basil, oregano and time combined makes tomato ketchup taste better. I know that chai tea+warm milk+acacia honey = liquid heaven. I want that same know-how applied to music production.
I'm not demanding it. I'm not asking for it. I think I already have a good amount of this knowledge, but is it legitimate? |
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| dj_alfi |
| quote: | Originally posted by pointPi
I know apple and cinnamon fits together. I know that basil, oregano and time combined makes tomato ketchup taste better. I know that chai tea+warm milk+acacia honey = liquid heaven. I want that same know-how applied to music production.
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Gross. The only thing that can make ketchup better is ing apple cider vinegar, bourbon, sugar and worcestershire sauce.
And it's called chai. Not chai tea. It'd be like sayin tea-tea. And mixing it with warm milk and acacia honey doesn't make it any better.
And that's why he can't give you a recipe for a track. |
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| pointPi |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj_alfi
Gross. The only thing that can make ketchup better is ing apple cider vinegar, bourbon, sugar and Worcestershire sauce.
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Whatever. Mixing mashed tomatoes, tomato purée, liquid honey, vinegar, olive oil, basil, oregano, time, salt and pepper together made a pretty decent ketchup substitute.
| quote: | Originally posted by dj_alfi
It's called chai. Not chai tea. It'd be like sayin tea-tea. |
I must've meant herbal tea, then. |
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