in the right hands it could be. I mean look at a competent guitarist playing live, much more complex than pushing any set of buttons yet they manage to not look at a screen and have more stage presence than most djs. The technology is not the problem, it is the djs.
i have yet to ever be wowed by a dj and not just looking at technique. Just hearing something that made you feel this was special , rather than , this guy is a pretty good jukebox. Anyone can do that. Of the 100 times of gone out, not once. They were all as you describe , playing music , other peoples music, in a way that anyone else could do. There was nothing that made them unique in anyway.
junkproject
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
it can, I learned to beatmatch using just the pitch shifts, no touching in 1 week. I learned to scrach ala qbert in 6 months. The issue is that djs tend to have no innate talent and those that do , do not have the experience of learning other instruments to know how to learn something quickly.
But i had exercises i did, stuff you do with any other instrument to focus on the problems rather than just dj. Most djs require headphones, i could mix without them. That is how fast you get when you know how to practice, what to practice, because you've acquired similar technique on an instrument.
So the technical part can be mastered easily in under 2 years. I'm talking about being about to mix seamless without cueing, without using headphones, without touching the platter in 30 seconds.
And this is a discussion about technique. You can argue what you think is djing, the point is that it would be easy to implement, and for those that would make use of it, they can.
And as much as you think you were good at track selection, well I was doing all that, but add to that structure like sonata form, spread over 2 hours. I did the harmonic mixing before there was a name for it. All my tracks had the structure and tonal center at 140 bpm. Djing was the easiest thing i've ever done musically. Fun, but easy.
But there is no tradition in learning how to dj, and the least effective way is to just do it. And that is why it takes someone 10 years to learn what should take 2.
And yes you could do what say i would want to do easily with tracktor , say play a loop , but you are beat juggling like an idiot, you need 4 tables, it uses technique that isn't necessary if you had access to key points without having to memorize the grooves of a record.
The point is why not. You might not use the midi , but others might. And for something that is so easy to implement, why not.
A mixer is one thing, a midi controller is another. If your using a mixer as a controller your just limiting yourself even more.
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
playing 2 records with the same tonal center is not harmonic mixing. Sasha wasn't doing. Nobody was, nobody is. Djs and the guys that invented that stupid wheel still don't understand key regions and how to apply them. It is one of those things everyone talks about doing but nobody actually does it. Sure they have like 3 tracks they always play that they know have the same centre but other than that, they have no idea how to use it without subjugating the actual character of a track for the key. He didn't markings on his records, and even arguing you have perfect pitch, that is all good a great but really, you going to keep auditioning possible tracks until you find one in the same key. And the concept of large structural format was something nobody did or does because people have trouble counting 8 bars let alone understanding how to shape 1 hour of music in more ways that just energy levels. That is why i always scoff at those harmonic mixing systems or people that say they do it.
Firstly, I know you type at the speed of thought but please, please start using the enter key after a sentence. I know it's a stream of consciousness for you but man, spare a brother some punctuation.
I know what you mean about harmonic mixing and the term being bastardised with MIK - it should really be described as the system lets you mix tracks without a clash of the root keys of given tracks, rather than you're mixing harmonically, but we digress....
What sasha was/is doing is mixing with complimentary scales - I'm no expert when it comes to him, but he was pretty intensely ordered about these things and a lot of preparation went in to his music, so although i can't be sure, It wouldn't surprise me if he was arranging his tracks in terms of arrangement as a broader body of music. He was also a concert level pianist before he Dj'd so again, he's going to have the chops.
I'd like to know more about hat you're getting at though (prior to the edit) about tonal center at 140bpm etc? Sounds pretty interesting..
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
in the right hands it could be. I mean look at a competent guitarist playing live, much more complex than pushing any set of buttons yet they manage to not look at a screen and have more stage presence than most djs. The technology is not the problem, it is the djs.
i have yet to ever be wowed by a dj and not just looking at technique. Just hearing something that made you feel this was special , rather than , this guy is a pretty good jukebox. Anyone can do that. Of the 100 times of gone out, not once. They were all as you describe , playing music , other peoples music, in a way that anyone else could do. There was nothing that made them unique in anyway.
That's where I disagree - sure it's easier to DJ than it is to play guitar, but the stage presence thing is just not true. Most guitarists stare at their navels while they rock out on stage, unless you think their fingers have stage appeal. It's only ever the lead singer or in some rare cases the drummer has presence - in some ways the guitarist is the grey man on stage, until the solo where he gets his 30 seconds of noodling fame.
And yes, i have been wowed by a DJ several times, and it tecnique was only part of it. You've probably never seen someone like Carl Cox, Jeff Mills or Adam Beyer live.
Cox especially has only every failed once (out of 12 times) to floor me in terms of DJ ability and that was in a venue that clearly doesn't suit his music and he;s never played there again.
I've never seen anyone both whip up and read a crowd with such perfect music selection and timing as him; it's ing uncanny. he knows what to play and when to play it, like it was only ever going to be that track that would have worked at that moment. That's aside from the fact he nearly always has two tracks playing at the same time, if not three or four and works every ing deck furiously to make something that is greater than just the sum of it's parts
It's those skills I'm talking about when I say mastery of DJ'ing. Any muppet can beatmatch, scratch, etc - but only a few have the true ability to throw down in front of any crowd and make them jack as if they had no choice.
PivotTechno
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
And yes, i have been wowed by a DJ several times, and it tecnique was only part of it. You've probably never seen someone like Carl Cox, Jeff Mills or Adam Beyer live.
It's those skills I'm talking about when I say mastery of DJ'ing. Any muppet can beatmatch, scratch, etc - but only a few have the true ability to throw down in front of any crowd and make them jack as if they had no choice.
Bing-oh.
It's a subtle (or sometimes not-so-subtle), je ne sais quoi that separates the wheat from the chaff in the DJ world. Timing, synching up with the room, the capacity to tell an exciting, riveting story that can only be a product of one's sum experience...
Re. the mixer - I really don't get why mixer designers feel the need to put studio-style fader knobs on line faders. Unless you bring every single mix in and out like it's molasses, they're as useless as on a bull. I own a Xone:32, and it's the one feature on it I despise, to the point where I'm thinking of modifying it to accommodate flat knobs.
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by PivotTechno
Bing-oh.
It's a subtle (or sometimes not-so-subtle), je ne sais quoi that separates the wheat from the chaff in the DJ world. Timing, synching up with the room, the capacity to tell an exciting, riveting story that can only be a product of one's sum experience...
Re. the mixer - I really don't get why mixer designers feel the need to put studio-style fader knobs on line faders. Unless you bring every single mix in and out like it's molasses, they're as useless as on a bull. I own a Xone:32, and it's the one feature on it I despise, to the point where I'm thinking of modifying it to accommodate flat knobs.
That's it exactly, and re the mixer, the only thing I can put it down to is that A&H came from live sound background where those faders weer the defacto. You can actually get some flat DJ fadre knobs that will go on the faders, I think Penny Giles may make them, and I've also seen certain vestax fader knobs be adapted to fit.
Looney4Clooney
but the ability to tell a great story , requires the concept of structure, something almost no dj understands. What you end up getting is basically the dj playing to the crowd, as opposed to taking the crowd on a carpet ride. one is pandering, the other is persian.
zyklon-jay
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
but the ability to tell a great story , requires the concept of structure, something almost no dj understands. What you end up getting is basically the dj playing to the crowd, as opposed to taking the crowd on a carpet ride. one is pandering, the other is persian.
Originally posted by DJ RANN
re the mixer, the only thing I can put it down to is that A&H came from live sound background where those faders weer the defacto. You can actually get some flat DJ fadre knobs that will go on the faders, I think Penny Giles may make them, and I've also seen certain vestax fader knobs be adapted to fit.
Not sure how that's feasible, as the fader post is considerably longer than what would be used to fit a flat knob:
Do you have a link to said knobs, perhaps?
Either way, I've contacted the A&H tech pro for Canada to see what he has to say. I could swap them out for Innofaders as I've done for the cf, but I have a lot of other things I'd rather spend $300 on at the moment... ;)
Looney4Clooney
what do you mean by fader knob ? Like the actual part you move ? Can't you just use a plain vertical one ? Allen and Heath has really gone to . Perhaps they moved their production to china. I used to own an old mixing console and that thing was rugged. The dj mixers seem rather fragile.
ah i just looked at the pic. Ya that is kinda stupid. Makes quick execution kinda cumbersome. i owned the their first dj mixer they made. I liked the filter, but ya those faders.
zyklon-jay
I'm coming into a little windfall soon, and i've been dreaming of buying this off of a buddy of mine. Total overkill for home use but i still want to throw him an offer just because. I know he is hard up for money and he has been dropping hints.
you all if it happens.
Looney4Clooney
the problem with knobs is that they will wear down and have to be replaced and that involves soldering. Unless you can't mix and do the slow i 'm not sure if this is going to sound good knob turn. And cross faders are handy.
I also find the use of Urei, so far removed from the actual guy that started that company, i mean i get that it is a clone, and that technically , they have the rights to the name but its like selling a stradivarius because your last name is stradivarius. And knobs are throw back to when faders where fancy and expensive. And what dj would even recognize the name urei anyways.
zyklon-jay
doesn't matter, it is a legend and works like butter with a little practice.
