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Advice for improving? (pg. 2)
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| Richard Butler |
Something I'm trying out right now I call 'spot the moment it took a wrong direction'.
I came up with this as I think there are moments where a wrong decision somewhere ends up in the track suffering from that point on, and if I have dozens of lanes going on it all gets a bit much too handle, so I'm actively watching for those make or break decisions at a nice slow pace as I go.
It's not easy and I can't say whether this will pay dividends for me, but it's made me slow down the production process aside from the key main melodic phrases which I worked out in minutes, when all bubbling with enthusiasm.
So far I'ce spent every day for a couple of weeks on just the main synth parts, no bass or anything else. What I noticed last night was that as I've added layers for the final drop, the synth part is suddenly all congested. In the past by now I would have had bass and sweeps and all sorts in there and found it too hard to work out where the congestion was stemming from as I get brain overload.
Because I only have synth parts to focus on I will hopefuly be able to carefuly address the congested sound now, without any other audio distractions jostling for my attention, sending me down all sorts of avenues which dilutes my energy.
Anyway, I'll see how this approach goes, but for once I'm real happy to build the track very slowly, whats the great hurry anyway. |
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| Trancelover03591 |
I have been feeling this way really hard over the last week. My work just isn't good enough. It isn't a matter of hard work because I put in 8 hours a day whenever I can.
One of the things I think plays a major role is the early foundation stages of the track. Getting it right at the beginning, so later decisions are built upon earlier good decisions. A lot of comments have talked about spending a lot of time on a track. But I wonder if that is the opposite. It is documented many producers bang out tracks in under 8 hours. If you are spending 80+ hours (or in the op's case 2 years) on a track it might not be fixable. Whereas, if you start a track, figure out all the right synths and samples, get the right groove and melody and focus on the task at hand, I think a momentum is possible, if not required in making a track. That is what I am trying to work on. Getting the stuff done right at the beginning before I move on. I have only had this happen once, and that was with the track I submitted to colors. I did that in probably under 20 hours, the shortest of any track and got the best feedback from labels and DJs of any track I have made. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
are you improving slowly or not at all ?
Generally, when you discover some new idea and you want to explore it, you can spend hours a day for months learning and perfecting something. I don't think it is uncommon and i think it is what separates the artists that use presets and never offer anything new in terms of sound design and then the artists where everyone is asking how to sound like. |
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| Lobst |
Thanks for the replies. I guess the core in what you guys are saying is basically "finish the god damn track!!" It's probably true but I think I just haven't learned things the right way, or paid enough attention to certain things.
For example, I just went to make a percussion loop and (as I said before) I really haven't learned anything from doing it before. So it actually sounds just as bad as my loops did 2 years ago. The difference is that I can now actually hear how bad it sounds, but I'm unable to do anything about it unless I get lucky, so that's what I've been doing so far, spending like 3-4 hours making a very simple loop that doesn't sound like crap. But while doing so, I never paid any attention to where the hi-hats are supposed to go, what kind of sounds go well together, how I tweaked the frequencies and so on.
The same is true for a lot of other things as well. Melodies, chord progressions, pad synthesis and so on...
Maybe I should write everything down?
Oh, this is a track I ALMOST finished a little more than a year ago but I couldn't find a good way to handle what happens after the climax, because no matter what I did it just ended up dull, so I kind of gave up but I left it in and did a quick master. I guess it's finished in the sense that it runs for beginning to the end but... :)
http://soundcloud.com/lobstar/excess-profoundness2
Not exactly looking to improve that specific track but I'll be glad to hear anything that could help improve my future tracks.
But a lot of good thoughts in this thread, especially about the reference tracks and trying to create tracks beyond my skill level. Thanks! |
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| J.L. |
Am I the only person that seems to disagree with everyone?
I used to just crank out tracks for the sake of finishing music and to keep the "creativity" going but until I learned to literally sit there with a track and polish it for a good 50+ hours and constantly take critical listening sessions and completely revamping ideas and removing ideas that just suck, I felt like I was never actually really growing as an artist. Stuff I thought sounded great will usually sound not too hot and get scrapped a while later.
In my opinion if you really want to get good and raise the standard and quality of your productions, you simply have to sit down and work on something and craft it out with blood sweat and tears versus making a lot of hit and miss type of stuff. If something is a miss, you simply figure out what the hell is wrong with it, and delete everything and keep banging at it until it's a hit.
In my opinion, if I finish a track that I would not be able to play out or want to send out to a label, I feel almost as if it was a waste of time.
I guess different people have different personalities and ways of working, but I find in music, whether be practicing an instrument, or producing, you need to have a really persistant, dilligent, and perfectionist work ethic in order to truly make something meaningfully good.
Just my 2 cents. |
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| Evolve140 |
| quote: | Originally posted by LoveHate
smoke more weed. |
Definitively smoke more weed. Also, consume more caffeine. Take notes. Get constant feedback.
edit: I decided to actually contribute. To op:
Determine what your strengths and weaknesses are. Find your major weak point, even if there are many, and focus on improving it. Since production is so cohesive, you will ultimately begin to touch on other problem areas if you can isolate one problem area. Your internal methods of learning and exploring will develop and you can start to gain a style of learning and experimentation all your own. I would say, once you tackle a few of your major issues, the method you created internally for handling the situation will come in handy for future items.
My second suggestion is broaden the music you listen to, and listen to music all the time. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by J.L.
Am I the only person that seems to disagree with everyone?
...
In my opinion if you really want to get good and raise the standard and quality of your productions, you simply have to sit down and work on something and craft it out with blood sweat and tears versus making a lot of hit and miss type of stuff. If something is a miss, you simply figure out what the hell is wrong with it, and delete everything and keep banging at it until it's a hit.
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I don't think that you're necessarily disagreeing with everybody else, since you have to keep working at it in order to improve. But, what some of us are saying is that, in order to be a 'producer', at some point you have to stop the endless noodling, finish the 'product', and get it out there to be heard. Otherwise, you're just practicing, and not producing. Maybe that's fine for some people, but the sense I got from the OP (he can confirm this for himself, of course) is that it's not fine with him and he is having trouble getting anything over the finish line. My advice, to use a lame cliche, is to just focus on finishing your first marathon, and don't concern yourself with winning it. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by J.L.
Am I the only person that seems to disagree with everyone?
I used to just crank out tracks for the sake of finishing music and to keep the "creativity" going but until I learned to literally sit there with a track and polish it for a good 50+ hours and constantly take critical listening sessions and completely revamping ideas and removing ideas that just suck, I felt like I was never actually really growing as an artist. Stuff I thought sounded great will usually sound not too hot and get scrapped a while later.
In my opinion if you really want to get good and raise the standard and quality of your productions, you simply have to sit down and work on something and craft it out with blood sweat and tears versus making a lot of hit and miss type of stuff. If something is a miss, you simply figure out what the hell is wrong with it, and delete everything and keep banging at it until it's a hit.
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There was that 18 year old french kid who banged out this hit on reason. His whole attitude seemed anything BUT perfectionistic.
I had the same attitude: just make sure everything is perfect a long the way and you'll have yourself an easy hit. It didn't work for me and as far as I am concerned, it hasn't worked out for you either. |
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| J.L. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Beatflux
There was that 18 year old french kid who banged out this hit on reason. His whole attitude seemed anything BUT perfectionistic.
I had the same attitude: just make sure everything is perfect a long the way and you'll have yourself an easy hit. It didn't work for me and as far as I am concerned, it hasn't worked out for you either. |
I am not talking as a "hit" as in successful music, and I guess I used a bad analogy.
What I'm referring to is sometimes when you are working on your tracks, stuff works out, and stuff doesn't work out. My take is you need to give yourself high personal goals in order to craft out something that actually gives you satisfaction that you made it instead of just making just yet another track. If you don't love something that you have just made, don't toss it for another one. But sit down and really be critical with yourself and do whatever it takes to fix it. Sometimes it may mean the reiterations sound nothing like the original.
I don't mean to sound narcissist, and for sure lots of people disagree with me, but I personally love the music that I make because it is awesome. It also gives me great pleasure to listen to it again, which gives me more motivation to go out and make more music that I know I'll love.
If you don't end up loving your own music as if it's the best thing in the world, you can't possibly have any motivation to continue producing.
The OP was mentioning how he's just not satisfied with what he's making and my point was simply to point out what I believe people need to hear.
Success and Personal satisfaction are both important, but if you can't have the latter, the former means nothing |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| i find i hate everything i make until maybe a year after the fact and listen back. There is this life cycle that happens almost every time. You work on something, you feel good, it gets better and you sort of hear the end result in your head and you feel great, and it never does reach that perfection and then you feel miserable. Like once the work is done, i tend to have a mini depression. Especially on things i spend more time on. Like a few hours mini. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by J.L.
I don't mean to sound narcissist, and for sure lots of people disagree with me, but I personally love the music that I make because it is awesome.
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You love your own music because it came from you. It's no different than parents thinking their child is "the best" and "the most beautiful." |
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| PassiePassion |
Ones your bored with freaking and being creative.
So when your fed up with making melodies that fit together.
Then the step would be to rip a part the songs you made.
Thats the most important thing to know if you want to release.
If you listen to [pop] songs then you can hear a certain build-up.
Most artists are too busy with freaking incl me to give it enough attention.
But it's that skill which sets a hit from a track.
I never went to the conservatory to learn this so i don't know the best way to teach this.
But i'll try ,,,,,,
First you create some melodic elements and a drums part as basics for your song.
Then you need to give your arrangements a position in your song !
The best way to find where your notes belong is to listen to released-finished trax.
Just listen to a bunch an analyse the construction of those songs.
So not listen and copy the same melodies.
But listen to the flow of that song and create the same flow on your own song.
Soon you'll find that most songs have a similar construction.
I'll write down some examples. The numbers behind are the bar amounts
So 4 = 4x 4 beats as example.
Intro 4
Intro Chorus 8
Verse 1 16
Bridge 4
Chorus 8
Verse 2 16
Bridge 4
Chorus 16
Break 8
Chorus Outro 16
or
Intro 4
Intro Ref 8
Couplet 8 or 12
Bridge or short break 4 or 8
Ref 8
Couplet 8 or 12
Bridge-short break 4 or 8
Ref 8 or 16
Break 4 or 8 or 16
Ref outro 8 or 16 or more
Ones you understand how this works ,then building songs gets a lot faster.
Because the chorus is used at various parts. So you can just copy it there.
IMHO this is the 2nd most important thing to understand when you create music.
Because it's this that makes your song sound like released music arrangement wise.
It's just a lil hard to find what is your chorus and what is your verse if your not a studied musician like me.
And off course it's nicer to just turn on the sequencer and let your creativity go.
But believe me , If you really focus on this concept then you'll see how important this part of the production is.
Many of us including me don't know enough about this structure within every song.
While it's this structuring that can help us to create more proper songs.
So if your a musician that wants to take your music the next step.
Try to analise a bunch of songs to find their chorus and verse
And then look at your own production and id the sequences that would be your chorus and verse.
Ones you are able to identify your own chorus and verse ,your there.
Most of us just make music but don't think about techniques cos we did not learn this
I had to learn this a bit when i worked at a recording studio.
Am still not good at it cos i tent to dump in more than 1 chorus in each song.
But as tip to learn it i can make it a bit easier for you.
Try to analyse a vocal song first [i took hiphop]
This makes it easier because then you know the rap has to fit the music.
So with rap songs you can take a rap text and try to fit it on your new song.
That way you wont put in too many melodic parts at the place where the rap will come.
And then it feels more logic when the Chorus comes in after a verse of text is done.
After you experimented a bit with this you'll see most songs have a very similar build-up.
9 minute house songs are different than 3 min pop songs off course.
But house songs also have this build up method.
Thats why you can mix some songs and let them play together for 3 minutes or more
Have a look and i hope it will help you with your productions.
I know it's boring to analyse songs ,but it will give you a lot of insight in how it should be done.
And then you wont put in 2 or more different choruses like i do many times.
I make music for the fun of making music certainly if i make house.
With hiphop beats i do look at the structure of my song cos then i need to fit vocals.
But on my dance productions i just go with the flow.
So i know i can improve my own productions by looking at this thing.
Thus i hope some readers understand this and can make good use of it
Another tip.
Start your song minimal !
I always start my sequencer and make a loop of 16 beats.
Then i start to create a rhythm and a bass and lots of melodies.
So that way i make it harder for myself cos then i get 3 or 4 chorus melodies.
So best way to start your song is by immediately spreading the notes in the arrangement.
Not creating all notes at the 16 bar loop as then you get too many different notes.
And then it becomes harder to see which is your chorus and which is your verse.
Good Luck ! |
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