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DJ Jon Cockle - Balls Out The Bath [really hard psy trance] (pg. 2)
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| geregere |
One of my favorite mix!
Have played twice:) |
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| Psyshell |
Don't take zipntf too seriously, he's a know it all dj who thinks he's the moderator of what makes a good psytrance set or something. They're both great tracks when used well and if you think so but he thinks otherwise then you may indeed be right. See what the other listeners thought as well, they might not have felt either of those tracks are weak or that they break the flow. Note also, that I've seen people who are really into a particular genre complain about djs who play really popular songs (simply because that listener has heard it too much). It's your job as dj (whether net/bedroom or IRL) to cater your set to the target audience. If most your audience isn't sick of electric universe-the prayer then go ahead and use it all you want.
Overall thoughts:
It's quite good, i'd definitely be on the dancefloor all night if you were playing. That said, in some parts you're really good at building flow and in others you're a little shakey. Remove the hickups and with a bit more planning/practice you'll definitely be a great dj. This set is definitely worth listening to & I'm looking forward to hearing your sets in the future.
Initial thoughts while listening/critical analysis:
-Not sure what "really hard psy trance is", this isn't what I'd call harder full on at all(it might be closer to hard trance than euro trance, but that's different to what I'd concidering harder psy), but that's not important and it's not like there's a universal definition of what those things mean.
-Your first track loses a lot of energy halfway through by this very jarring transition between pads to beats that I just don't get. Maybe avoid that one. The first transition really doesn't work very well mood wise, you go from a somewhat chill/straightforward psy track to something really banging (& hard trance esque) that sounds like it should be left until much later in a set. I've always found that the second track in a set is where the real energy gets going always, maybe spend a long time picking the second track and then find a track that would fit well before it.
-After that the set is fairly good at keeping a fairly flat high energy level. I'd definitely stay if you were the dj playing at 3am keeping the party dancing all night. Lots of energy, a fair amount of variety and interesting tracks. This is really good.
-I quite like the gradual change in style from 20 minutes in to 35 minutes in. Reminds me of what a lot of really good dj sets I've heard are like.
-I feel like that breakdown with the breakbeats killed the energy a bit. A transition in mood from darker to ligher to sorta cheesy doesn't do it for me mood wise. That track would work on it's own but I'm not a fan of the flow it created mood wise. Maybe if another track was added in between that and the last one it'd work well. I'm talking about the one with the "and god created heaven and the earth" track. I'm not really sure what could be done, but I feel like the mood became darker and then lighter (and then much lighter) too quickly.
-Creatures of the night is well placed concidering the two tracks before it
-The prayer works really well in context, I was thinking the intro would really destroy all flow but in practice this track works. Also... this is a remix! This isn't the original. How the hell did zipntf not notice? That said... I really feel like the breakdown is a bit unecassary... the set hasn't been going for long enough to tolerate another drop in flow IMO. It's only an hour long set. This would work much better if the set was longer. For short sets you should probably go for less variety (in terms of energy levels) IMO. Overall it's fairly good placement, but it could work so so much better with a little more planning. This set has somewhat shakey flow, but it's clear you understand how to make decent flow you just need more practice. Remove the hickups and a set like this would be great. Currently it's quite good. The finishing track is really good. |
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| ziptnf |
| I haven't even ing listened yet, you . How would I know its a remix if its not labeled as one? Get my name out of your mouth dickweed, john cockle is 1000x the DJ I will ever be and a million times better than you. |
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| ziptnf |
| LOL @ telling Jon Cockle to get more practice. You ing idiot, he plays regularly with John 00 Fleming. I doubt he needs practice. What a brazen ing insult. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| Oh, I'm sure Jon will be taking a lot on board from that review. |
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| JonDC |
Haha. I had a look at Psyshell's thread and have just seen the storm that it caused amongst the regulars!
I've got nothing against the chap and he has taken a lot of time to write me a review which I am very grateful for, so I will respond to it seriously :)
| quote: | Originally posted by Psyshell
-Not sure what "really hard psy trance is", this isn't what I'd call harder full on at all(it might be closer to hard trance than euro trance, but that's different to what I'd considering harder psy), but that's not important and it's not like there's a universal definition of what those things mean.
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Point taken. I am not a psy trance DJ - I'm a trance DJ really. This is the hardest selection of music in my record library and it all falls under the sub genre 'psy trance'. To me this music is really hard, but to the connoisseur of all things psy trance I'm sure there are some other sub genre's around that might make this look like .
| quote: | Originally posted by Psyshell
-Your first track loses a lot of energy halfway through by this very jarring transition between pads to beats that I just don't get. Maybe avoid that one. The first transition really doesn't work very well mood wise, you go from a somewhat chill/straightforward psy track to something really banging (& hard trance esque) that sounds like it should be left until much later in a set. I've always found that the second track in a set is where the real energy gets going always, maybe spend a long time picking the second track and then find a track that would fit well before it.
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This just has to do with my style. Even if I am playing a really high energy set I like to have an atmospheric opener and then a couple of slightly different tracks before getting into the main groove. In this instance you've got the dark progressive atmosphere followed by a couple of techy tracks before the full on psy blows up for the rest of the set.
I like to think this makes it seem like a journey rather than just another set. I'm sure that once again it has to do with my routes being in trance / prog rather than psy trance.
| quote: | Originally posted by Psyshell
-I feel like that breakdown with the breakbeats killed the energy a bit. A transition in mood from darker to ligher to sorta cheesy doesn't do it for me mood wise. That track would work on it's own but I'm not a fan of the flow it created mood wise. Maybe if another track was added in between that and the last one it'd work well. I'm talking about the one with the "and god created heaven and the earth" track. I'm not really sure what could be done, but I feel like the mood became darker and then lighter (and then much lighter) too quickly.
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Interesting perspective :) This track (Wizzy Noise - Theory of Evolution) is actually intended to knock the set up a gear and keep things exciting. You've just had 4 tracks in a row which I would call 'square psy trance' and my instinct is therefore to change the mood. I was trying to bridge between that section and the grand finale which is completely full on
In this instance, it's by using a more groovy riff, which Wizzy Noise are fantastic at - this track really makes me want to dance! I know that isn't necessary something that makes you think 'hard' and 'dark' like the previous tracks, but to me it packs more than enough energy to maintain the flow.
| quote: | Originally posted by Psyshell
-The prayer works really well in context, I was thinking the intro would really destroy all flow but in practice this track works. Also... this is a remix! This isn't the original. How the hell did zipntf not notice? That said... I really feel like the breakdown is a bit unecassary... the set hasn't been going for long enough to tolerate another drop in flow IMO. It's only an hour long set. This would work much better if the set was longer. For short sets you should probably go for less variety (in terms of energy levels) IMO. Overall it's fairly good placement, but it could work so so much better with a little more planning. This set has somewhat shakey flow, but it's clear you understand how to make decent flow you just need more practice. Remove the hickups and a set like this would be great. Currently it's quite good. The finishing track is really good. |
I am very conscious of having too many breakdowns as this is the principle thing that pisses me off about normal trance. However, for me as long as you are outnumbering your breakdowns with beats to a good ratio you are ok. After all, this is the supposed to be the epic ending so a reasonable breakdown is par for the course, and I don't think they had been overdone up to this point.
Maybe you are right though - I did cram quite a lot into the hour and I could have easily built up to it a little more.
Overall, I'm really grateful for the detailed review and perspective from a psy trance head, even if I don't 100% agree with all of it. I'm glad you enjoyed it and will listen to more of my sets :)
| quote: | Originally posted by Ziptnf
I haven't even ing listened yet, you . How would I know its a remix if its not labelled as one?
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lol :D
My mistake - original post updated |
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| Psyshell |
| quote: | Originally posted by ziptnf
I haven't even ing listened yet, you . How would I know its a remix if its not labeled as one? |
Maybe you shouldn't be giving feedback that requires you to listen to the set first before listening to it then? I'm not going to criticize someone's mix without hearing it first and I don't see many people that actually do that. Even if it was the original it's still a dumb post.
| quote: | Originally posted by ziptnf
LOL @ telling Jon Cockle to get more practice |
No I didn't bother to google his name before listening. Surely a more objective review of his mix is more along the lines of what he might want anyway? I didn't see a comment in the OP saying "please find out who I am before listening" so I'm going to assume that not doing so wasn't actually a problem. My feedback was incorrectly framed since I assumed OP was a bedroom dj but I don't see the issue beyond that.
| quote: | Originally posted by JonDC
I had a look at Psyshell's thread and have just seen the storm that it caused amongst the regulars!
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I've been here since 2007 and I have a long history of drama with the regulars. It's to be expected.
| quote: | Originally posted by JonDC
Point taken. I am not a psy trance DJ - I'm a trance DJ really. This is the hardest selection of music in my record library and it all falls under the sub genre 'psy trance'. To me this music is really hard, but to the connoisseur of all things psy trance I'm sure there are some other sub genre's around that might make this look like . |
There's loads of different names, some of them mean "dark and hard" some of them mean "hard" and some of them mean "even harder".
It used to go full on(145bpm) < darkpsy(mostly 148+bpm)< full power (155bpm, doesn't really exist anymore)<psycore (160+bpm strictly)
| quote: | Originally posted by JonDC
This just has to do with my style. Even if I am playing a really high energy set I like to have an atmospheric opener and then a couple of slightly different tracks before getting into the main groove. In this instance you've got the dark progressive atmosphere followed by a couple of techy tracks before the full on psy blows up for the rest of the set.
I like to think this makes it seem like a journey rather than just another set. I'm sure that once again it has to do with my routes being in trance / prog rather than psy trance.
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It does indeed work fairly well. Maybe try collecting more albums of various styles and brainstorming how you might describe them. If you want an idea for what different styles are like try downloading some of them more highly rated albums on http://www.ektoplazm.com/ of different styles. I agree with that the idea that it's probably because of the trance/prog trance background rather than psy one. Not really a problem, just means lots more to understand about obscure music styles.
| quote: | Originally posted by JonDC
Interesting perspective :) This track (Wizzy Noise - Theory of Evolution) is actually intended to knock the set up a gear and keep things exciting. You've just had 4 tracks in a row which I would call 'square psy trance' and my instinct is therefore to change the mood. I was trying to bridge between that section and the grand finale which is completely full on
In this instance, it's by using a more groovy riff, which Wizzy Noise are fantastic at - this track really makes me want to dance! I know that isn't necessary something that makes you think 'hard' and 'dark' like the previous tracks, but to me it packs more than enough energy to maintain the flow. |
After finding out you're a famous dj, well sure if it gets people dancing then what works works. I'm used to two types of psy, what I hear at melbourne psy events and the stuff I find on the net. For some reason psy seems to be very splintered by region so if djs in england mix up the flow a bit because that's what the crowd likes it's certainly possible.
| quote: | Originally posted by JonDC
I am very conscious of having too many breakdowns as this is the principle thing that pisses me off about normal trance. However, for me as long as you are outnumbering your breakdowns with beats to a good ratio you are ok. After all, this is the supposed to be the epic ending so a reasonable breakdown is par for the course, and I don't think they had been overdone up to this point.
Maybe you are right though - I did cram quite a lot into the hour and I could have easily built up to it a little more. |
Well from the perspective of a dancer and partygoer. I think there's a lot of factors as to how much the music should be varied. Certainly at parties/nights I've been to where there's a psy stage and a chillout stage it seems as though playing just straight dark hard stuff for 2 hours straight (by 2 different djs) is less of a problem. There's also what time of the night you tend to play at. If this was a "first full on/harder set" after "progpsy or progtechno" set I'd be a bit worried about the flow. If you're the dj 2 hours later though then absolutely this would work great since flow is much more flexible. I honestly originally thought you were one of those bedroom djs who names his sets based on his name and hadn't played at a club yet based on your original post. So bear that in mind when you're reading my initial criticism. In particular in my experience dancers tend to be far less worried about flow than people nitpicking on a forum. I'm probably going to learn a lot more from your commentary on my feedback then you're going to with mine; but hopefully it was a useful exchange for you as well.
| quote: | Originally posted by JonDC
Overall, I'm really grateful for the detailed review and perspective from a psy trance head, even if I don't 100% agree with all of it. I'm glad you enjoyed it and will listen to more of my sets :) |
Absolutely, and it could be a regional difference thing. I appreciate that there's a variety of crowds and scenes and djs that play to that style as well. It is good to see some trance scene influenced djs posting their psy sets on here. I shall definitely be checking out your soundcloud to hear some more mixes. Good luck with djing in the future and hopefully a local promoter books you to come to melbourne in the near future. |
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| ziptnf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psyshell
Maybe you shouldn't be giving feedback that requires you to listen to the set first before listening to it then? I'm not going to criticize someone's mix without hearing it first and I don't see many people that actually do that. Even if it was the original it's still a dumb post. |
Are you daft? I didn't even give him feedback. I simply pointed out that the original mix of The Prayer wouldn't fit after the Xerox & Illumination track. Which it wouldn't. The 2009 mix is much more suitable, and had I known that, I wouldn't have said anything.
| quote: | | No I didn't bother to google his name before listening. Surely a more objective review of his mix is more along the lines of what he might want anyway? I didn't see a comment in the OP saying "please find out who I am before listening" so I'm going to assume that not doing so wasn't actually a problem. My feedback was incorrectly framed since I assumed OP was a bedroom dj but I don't see the issue beyond that. |
No, but you shouldn't assume that everyone wants a huge page of text nitpicking, analyzing, and criticizing (or as you would say, offering "feedback" on how to "be a better DJ"). Jon posts a lot of mixes here, and they are always killer. If you would remove your head from your ass, you'd realize that not everyone wants a ing lecture on the different subgenres of psytrance. Jesus Christ, you spent an entire paragraph explaining the different micro-niches of psytrance when all he probably wanted was a listen and a thought. You aren't qualified to shine Jon's shoes, much less tell him how to DJ better. |
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| JonDC |
| quote: | Originally posted by ziptnf
Are you daft? I didn't even give him feedback. I simply pointed out that the original mix of The Prayer wouldn't fit after the Xerox & Illumination track. Which it wouldn't. The 2009 mix is much more suitable, and had I known that, I wouldn't have said anything.
No, but you shouldn't assume that everyone wants a huge page of text nitpicking, analyzing, and criticizing (or as you would say, offering "feedback" on how to "be a better DJ"). Jon posts a lot of mixes here, and they are always killer. If you would remove your head from your ass, you'd realize that not everyone wants a ing lecture on the different subgenres of psytrance. Jesus Christ, you spent an entire paragraph explaining the different micro-niches of psytrance when all he probably wanted was a listen and a thought. You aren't qualified to shine Jon's shoes, much less tell him how to DJ better. |
Whilst I would be lying if I said I wasn't at least a bit flattered by your comments Zip, I think I would have to be a bit of a knob if I didn't jump in here. I certainly don't think I'm Gods gift to trance music, and I still have a lot to learn to be the best DJ I can be. I'm really appreciative of any comments people make, and I will be the judge of their merit.
The fact that this guy has listened to my mix intently enough to comment in such depth makes me happy. He is also critiquing my mix with a completely different frame of reference to my own, so even where I don't agree with him, it's still interesting to read :)
That being said, I am also thoroughly enjoying the two of you arguing :p |
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| ziptnf |
| quote: | Originally posted by JonDC
Whilst I would be lying if I said I wasn't at least a bit flattered by your comments Zip, I think I would have to be a bit of a knob if I didn't jump in here. I certainly don't think I'm Gods gift to trance music, and I still have a lot to learn to be the best DJ I can be. I'm really appreciative of any comments people make, and I will be the judge of their merit. |
Certainly, but he is an extremely judgemental poster (emphasis on the mental) who feels he needs to start his review with a shot at me before making rather hypocritical comments on the mixing and a lecture on psytrance subgenres. I couldn't help but at least stick up for you a little bit.
| quote: | | The fact that this guy has listened to my mix intently enough to comment in such depth makes me happy. He is also critiquing my mix with a completely different frame of reference to my own, so even where I don't agree with him, it's still interesting to read :) |
He comments on everything in a massively overbearing and condescending amount of brain-addled depth. Prepare for a wall-of-text in response to my latest posts. |
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| Ted Promo |
| Dude, zip, forreal, it's TA. Calm down. TA doesn't need a white knight and you're seriously just feeding the troll lolololol |
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| ziptnf |
Shouldn't you be discussing the butthole of my dog somewhere in the c0r, Adam? I couldn't care less about your infinite sadness that I might possibly want to stand up for myself when I'm called out.
Edit: gonna go ahead and step away from TA for a couple weeks. I never meant to derail this thread with my drama with Psyshell. I'll be PMing Jon on Facebook with my thoughts on his mix. |
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