Originally posted by Lira
It's downright bizarre for me to read this thread. Being born in the US (compared to being born here) is like being given a head start in life.
When I was in Poland, I kept hearing people tell me this. How they love America, want to come here, and how much better I have it because I was born here. I was actually a bit embarrassed and told them, "Hey, nothing is free no matter where you're at in the world. We all have to work to get what we want and even then we never get it."
I suppose I just disliked them looking at me as if I had everything given to me just because I was American. Or that I was entitled to everything because I was American. Truth is, I've experienced a lot of the darker and desperate aspects of living in this country and something about how they talked to me rubbed me the wrong way.
For me, it comes down to perspective. There were a lot of things I really enjoyed there that I don't get here. And at the same time, there were things that weren't there that I grew a greater appreciation for when I came back. I never had this sort of experience in Korea, though, and I think it's because I was in the military and always had that American home base no matter what.
quote:
Originally posted by Lews
There's plenty of things to dislike about America, but to complain about being so fortunate to be a citizen here is one of the most revolting things I can imagine.
I think this sums it up perfectly.
There's things to complain about here, but when it comes down to it what we have to complain about is peanuts in comparison in most other places around the world.
Joss Weatherby
quote:
Originally posted by Lews
I've lived in Africa. I've seen truly unfortunate people. He doesn't know . If he think's his life is awful, he should go find something better. I'll be happy to see what he finds. There's plenty of things to dislike about America, but to complain about being so fortunate to be a citizen here is one of the most revolting things I can imagine. Especially when he doesn't even bother to vote or get involved.
While I agree that there are worse off places, I do not dislike the mentality that people should be angry about conditions here. If you look at relative things the US is very low on a number of rankings, almost all of western and northern Europe out ranks us.
This idea that "well places in Africa are worse" should not be the sort of arguments made, because it just gives credence to conservatives that make the same comparison. When trying to improve a society you should never say "well at least we aren't", instead saying "why aren't we?"
I know you are generally in agreement with me on a lot of things, its just this sort of choice phrasing that I think is fairly detrimental to improving things in the US, which are relatively bad compared to our "equals" in the world.
OrangestO
You don't sound like a very appreciative person.
idoru
CD, correct me if I'm wrong, but...
quote:
Originally posted by OrangestO
You don't sound like a very appreciative person.
... I think that was just a very long-winded way of him saying, "Yeah, we may be better off than a lot of other countries, but it's still OK to be self-critical."
Lira
quote:
Originally posted by OrangestO
When I was in Poland, I kept hearing people tell me this. How they love America, want to come here, and how much better I have it because I was born here. I was actually a bit embarrassed and told them, "Hey, nothing is free no matter where you're at in the world. We all have to work to get what we want and even then we never get it."
I suppose I just disliked them looking at me as if I had everything given to me just because I was American. Or that I was entitled to everything because I was American. Truth is, I've experienced a lot of the darker and desperate aspects of living in this country and something about how they talked to me rubbed me the wrong way.
For me, it comes down to perspective. There were a lot of things I really enjoyed there that I don't get here. And at the same time, there were things that weren't there that I grew a greater appreciation for when I came back. I never had this sort of experience in Korea, though, and I think it's because I was in the military and always had that American home base no matter what.
I'm not saying you have it all handed to you on a silver plate. I didn't want to imply you live in some sort of Yankee Utopia where bald eagles drop hamburgers and civil liberties on your lawn the moment you shout "Freedom!". The United States is economically pretty unfair, and it's not easy for anyone down the social ladder, but compared to most foreigners under similar conditions, you're still given more resources and opportunities to improve, I believe.
You speak English by default, whereas most of us have to study hard to master even the most basic sentences; you have open access to a market that moves the world's largest economy, while the rest of the world has to struggle a bit harder to make it in there; and if you're an artist, odds are the cultural power of the American media alone can give you more visibility than anywhere else in the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Floorfiller
Pretty sure the neo geo's of the World are giving Americans a bad rap. Sorry World, I promise we all ain't igsnant. :(
This is also something I'd like to mention.
Americans are, in general, the friendliest foreigners I see here in Brazil. Sure, we don't see many here in my neck of woods, and it doesn't mean everyone else is rude, but they're by far the most outgoing and friendly the moment you say "hi!".
OrangestO
quote:
Originally posted by Lira
Americans are, in general, the friendliest foreigners I see here in Brazil. Sure, we don't see many here in my neck of woods, and it doesn't mean everyone else is rude, but they're by far the most outgoing and friendly the moment you say "hi!".
People in Poland I talked to said the same thing.
Whenever people say Americans are lazy or dumb, I just tell them to ask themselves who wins the most medals in the Olympics and who has the best research universities in the world.
You have to counter ignorance and simple-minded comments with that kind of evidence :o
Lews
quote:
Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
While I agree that there are worse off places, I do not dislike the mentality that people should be angry about conditions here. If you look at relative things the US is very low on a number of rankings, almost all of western and northern Europe out ranks us.
This idea that "well places in Africa are worse" should not be the sort of arguments made, because it just gives credence to conservatives that make the same comparison. When trying to improve a society you should never say "well at least we aren't", instead saying "why aren't we?"
I know you are generally in agreement with me on a lot of things, its just this sort of choice phrasing that I think is fairly detrimental to improving things in the US, which are relatively bad compared to our "equals" in the world.
Except I didn't say anything about it being wrong to dislike things here or to be angry. I dislike and am critical about a ton of things. Being critical of things is the only way to move forward.
I didn't bring up Africa as an example of 'we don't need to change anything, because we're better than Africa;' I brought it up because of all the advantages we have here that they don't have there.
The key part of what I said was:
quote:
There's plenty of things to dislike about America, but to complain about being so fortunate to be a citizen here is one of the most revolting things I can imagine.
He has more advantages and benefits that the great majority of people, and yet he is complaining about them. He's an abhorrent and spoiled little .
Joss Weatherby
quote:
Originally posted by Lews
I didn't bring up Africa as an example of 'we don't need to change anything, because we're better than Africa;' I brought it up because of all the advantages we have here that they don't have there.
I know, and I explained why it is still not good to say that, as it plays into conservative rhetoric.
Then to go on and use a term as strong as revolting is a bit much in my opinion. Honestly there are a lot of places in the world where you would be better off born than in the US. So it is not entirely revolting an idea.
It seems like semantics but a lot of stupid people will read "we are better than xyz hole, so its ok" instead of "we have problems but we aren't as bad as some other places". Too many optimists that become complacent, and too many stupid people that can be told we are fine because we aren't all dying in the streets (yet).
My point is do not make comparisons of "we are better than blah blah" instead focus on what needs improving here and keep the topic of other developing countries separate in comparisons.
Lews
quote:
Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
I know, and I explained why it is still not good to say that, as it plays into conservative rhetoric.
Then to go on and use a term as strong as revolting is a bit much in my opinion. Honestly there are a lot of places in the world where you would be better off born than in the US. So it is not entirely revolting an idea.
It seems like semantics but a lot of stupid people will read "we are better than xyz hole, so its ok" instead of "we have problems but we aren't as bad as some other places". Too many optimists that become complacent, and too many stupid people that can be told we are fine because we aren't all dying in the streets (yet).
My point is do not make comparisons of "we are better than blah blah" instead focus on what needs improving here and keep the topic of other developing countries separate in comparisons.
Nah, he has the exact same attitude as those rich 16 year old girls I complained about earlier. It's revolting.
And when people are complaining about how ty it is here compared to a small handful of other wealthy countries, it is entirely appropriate to compare us to the vast majority who are nowhere near as good as us. It's stupid to compare us only to the other wealthy Western states.
Joss Weatherby
quote:
Originally posted by Lews
It's stupid to compare us only to the other wealthy Western states.
No, its actually entirely apt because the general consensus in the US is "we aren't that bad". We are that bad. Both the left and the right in this country have us on a race towards the bottom. There people that actually feel that to compete in a global market the US needs to have the same standard of living as Guatemala.
The way you phrase arguments is entirely important, and I hate to sound like a jerk, but we need to focus on our problems here in the US before we focus on fixing other countries, because frankly it is not worth it. We can be humanitarian here when we have universal healthcare, free education, and all the perks that will make us the competitive and egalitarian nation that we deserve and need to be to compete with Europe, Japan, South Korea, and China in the future.
So comparing us to African nations or other poor nations is not helpful because it creates a sense of false worth. We should look at it as two separate worlds, and we should focus on us being at the bottom rung of ours before looking to bring people up from the bottom of the other world or trying to bring others into ours.
