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Why you do not need (and why it is a bad idea) to use a Sub....
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| DJ RANN |
So it's been coming up again recently in a few threads and there is no single thread that easily addresses it.
So this is a combination of a few different posts I have made over the years as to why you don't need or should ever use a sub for producing in Stereo:
If people enjoy using a sub for listening /entertainment purposes, then that's of course fine, but subs on a STEREO SYSTEM just cause way too many problems to worth trying to get the balance right.
Why?
1, We mix in Stereo. Not 2.1.
The ".1" is for a dedicated LFE (Low Frequency Emitter) channel, which stereo mixing does not have as part of it's inherent protocol. So even from that point, you're muddying the waters in terms reference monitoring.
2, Because of this, there is no standardised crossover point for a sub on a stereo system, and that means it's all done at the sole discretion of the manufacturer and all vary.
This means one sub may have a different crossover point to another and may sound completely different, and I'm not even taking in to consideration what frequencies the accompanying monitors are meant to handle or how that specific combination will work together (enter quagmire here).
3, Stereo monitors should have more than enough bass response - accuracy is kind of the point in having reference monitors. If they don't, the solution is not buy some whacking great bass driver to cover up their shortcomings of lower frequency response.
4, Subs are annoyingly difficult to place correctly even in a treated room as there are so many factors that come in to play, from initial sub placement, to listening position, to relation to other speakers, to the materials the room is made from......
5, To use a sub in a proper configuration, you need to calibrate both the output level and delay times, which are not easy things to do unless you have advanced monitor controls.
I could go on but you get the point.
Now having said all this, there are a couple of caviats but these are the few exceptions and they really only apply to <1% of the people on here:
For score and compositional work - chances are, it will end up on a system that has a dedicated LFE channel (i.e. 5.1, 7.1. 12.1 etc), and in these cases, even on a stereo set up, you can kind of use the sub as a "draft" .1 (lfe) preview.
Also, in general the better the speakers, the better they will integrate with a sub. For instance, Genelec, B&W, Mackie, Focal etc are designed with surround mixing in mind, so they work just fine when properly setup in a system that is configured for a discrete LFE channel.
With surround systems, in terms of delays, yes some systems have delay options, and even some very advanced monitoring management systems have options to delay speaker signals, but these are really fixes for room problems, and frankly the biggest issue is sub placement, which if done right will negate any need for delays. It's a different story for live sound reinforcement though, where the distances are greater and due to frequency/amplitude dissipation, there needs to be specific according compensation.
Bypassing all the speakers except one at a time is good practice - often at the end of a cue mix, the engineer will just listen to a LFE channel to double check it. Same with the fronts, then same with the rears. Again, you can't easily do this when the a sub is piggybacking off the stereo monitors.
Don't get me wrong, subs certainly have their place: in a treated room, with careful placement and on at least a true 5.1+ mixing system.
If you want a sub to feel/listen to music and get a heavy bass bias for enjoyment but for anything relating to production, don't even think about it. |
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| lentej |
| Nice points mate, but man, I can't see myself without my Yamaha HS10W, this thing is the reason I love dance music so much. |
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| Allied Nations |
for mixing this all makes sense but for composing i can't really agree
the whole reason i bought the mackies is even because they are missing a bit of clarity in the mids they feel like a mini club system and thats super important to me when im creating a dance track
a dedicated sub isnt a great idea for mixing but if you are making something amazing its gonna be mixed again anyways most likely
i wanna pump when im producing |
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| Looney4Clooney |
you don't really provide the other side and simplify it to the point that you should have a for idiots preamble which is always a good thing around here.
The idea that we mix in stereo , not 2.1 is rather silly. You are assuming we are hearing music from 2 mathematical points. A sub will not distort this any more than your ear, your head and your walls. If anything , you are suggesting 2 subs rather than 1 which would actually work better but not quite necessary all the time. Either way, a sub is providing content that doesn't have a stereo component so it really doesn't make much of a difference especially when doing stereo EDM mixes.
The advantage a sub gives you is the ability to place it and not move your speakers. Your speakers have non universal crossover points. A sub isn't going to change that.
There are just as many reasons for a sub than for not getting a sub. Your speakers have subs built in to them. The only thing that is changing is the ability to move the source allowing you to work with your room. Thats it. They tend to provide less distortion than leaving it to your speakers, they tend to work better in small rooms were bass is really reliant on your source which you can't really do anything about with 2 speakers.
There are just as many reasons for than there are against. And i do not view subs as AN who wants his music to pump. The goal is proper bass. Dedicated subs can provide with much more ease in less idea conditions. |
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| MSZ |
I've seem some studios I think with 2.2 systems...err 2 subs?
http://www.masteringmansion.com/ |
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| Allied Nations |
| did u get my pm looney? |
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| Looney4Clooney |
think about that for a second. Those numbers only really mean anything when you are dealing with calibrated playback rooms were content is sent to a specific speaker and that .1 has a physical effect on what is sent were to be played back.
Does having 2 tweaters, a doubling of your mid - highs source points make your system all of a sudden 4.2 using 2 because well, your speakers have a sub inside because that driver providing the bass is is pretty much a sub. Granted not as precise and generally prone to much more distortion especially with bass heavy music.
The problem with subs in particular on here is you have people asking what phasing is and well, if that is the general level of how people understand audio, you are better of without a sub, probably better off without speakers and should just use headphones wearing a helmet.
If you understand basic principles and know why you are using a sub, there is no reason why not. They have a purpose. That purpose isn't to make bass louder. They are also more useful when you don't have an ideal room which is why I seem to think you find it strange that they are used. A bad room will benefit much more than a great room.
I have a bigger room now and I don't use them anymore. When i had a small room, they were a god send. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by lentej
Nice points mate, but man, I can't see myself without my Yamaha HS10W, this thing is the reason I love dance music so much. |
Again, that's exactly why I said if you enjoy it, then that absolutely fine.
| quote: | Originally posted by Allied Nations
for mixing this all makes sense but for composing i can't really agree
the whole reason i bought the mackies is even because they are missing a bit of clarity in the mids they feel like a mini club system and thats super important to me when im creating a dance track
a dedicated sub isnt a great idea for mixing but if you are making something amazing its gonna be mixed again anyways most likely
i wanna pump when im producing
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Again, this comes down the enjoyment factor as a personal preference, and although you may like to try to recreate a "mini club system" for feel, that's a very tricky thing to get right (i.e. to accurately recreate a club system in your bedroom as a monitor reference standard). Danny Tenaglia has this but on a very serious scale, and that I get, but adding a completely non-standardised sub, without appropriate treatment in your bedroom to make it sound like a club for precision referencing? No so good.
| quote: | Originally posted by Richie
you don't really provide the other side and simplify it to the point that you should have a for idiots preamble which is always a good thing around here.
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You're meant to infer it's that from the explanation at the beginning; it keeps coming up again and again, when both the theory and practise says hell no.
| quote: | Originally posted by Richie
The idea that we mix in stereo , not 2.1 is rather silly. You are assuming we are hearing music from 2 mathematical points. A sub will not distort this any more than your ear, your head and your walls. If anything , you are suggesting 2 subs rather than 1 which would actually work better but not quite necessary all the time. Either way, a sub is providing content that doesn't have a stereo component so it really doesn't make much of a difference especially when doing stereo EDM mixes.
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Ahh, the old two-sub argument. We've been here before, and I told you then that you're just adding more problems. There's a reason the best engineers in the world all concur with what I'm saying. It's not a conspiracy to rid you of your sub, I promise.
Low frequency is colloquially described at omnidirectional. This is actually a misnomer. All frequencies in the human range are omnidirectional if the diameter of the radiating surface is small in relation to the wavelength. With even a 6" LF driver, a 100hz sound has a wavelength of 5' so in most medium sized rooms that makes the speaker actually omnidirectional.
Our ability to detect the direction of a low frequency source is a complex and is related to the spacing of our ears and the effects of our head as a baffle, but we can reliably tell direction when the phase and/or intensity difference between our ears is sufficient & this reduces as we reduce the frequency and this has to do with that size of the wavelength increasing.
It is more a case of a sub being difficult to locate at lower frequencies, but herein lies the argument - it has nothing to do with your assertions about stereo vs 2.1 being silly - you are trying to recreate an accurate monitoring reference.
People listening to it at home or in a club or on the radio either might not have a sub or if they do, there is simply no universal or even remotely common standard for that sub, meaning you are just guessing at many distinct variables (i.e. SPL of Sub, crossover points, emission/arrivals times, etc) which have a fundamental effect on the accuracy of monitoring.
To put it's simply, you're trying to dumb the argument down by saying we don't listen in 2.1. Well we don't listen in 5.1 or 6 exact mathematical points either but the difference is there is an established reasoning behind the localisation of that protocol as well as exact defined standards meaning you can mix to a reference.
| quote: | Originally posted by Richie
The advantage a sub gives you is the ability to place it and not move your speakers. Your speakers have non universal crossover points. A sub isn't going to change that.
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Yes and no.
Yes: You can place it, but that doesn't mean it's not going to cause you a ton of headaches trying to find the best placement to avoid room modes, standing waves etc.
No: non universal (or better said, non-standardised) crossover points means using a sub is purely a guess with stereo system as the stereo protocol does not include LF as a discrete channel, so anyone else reproducing your production on any other system will only have a L & R channel (no split of frequency whatsoever) or even if they are using a sub, it's determined by whatever that manufacturer made up which won;t match your reference setup.
| quote: | Originally posted by Richie
There are just as many reasons for a sub than for not getting a sub. Your speakers have subs built in to them. The only thing that is changing is the ability to move the source allowing you to work with your room. Thats it. They tend to provide less distortion than leaving it to your speakers, they tend to work better in small rooms were bass is really reliant on your source which you can't really do anything about with 2 speakers.
There are just as many reasons for than there are against. And i do not view subs as AN who wants his music to pump. The goal is proper bass. Dedicated subs can provide with much more ease in less idea conditions.
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You haven't given one legitimate reason. Stop thinking so heavily about the direction of the source being the main issue here - it's about accuracy of all factors for the given medium and the set associated standards of it's inherent protocol.
This is the fundamental thing you keep glossing over is that our ultimate end medium is stereo. Two speakers. That's it. Not two speakers and a sub. and that's why we produce on two speakers that have decades of R&D - That set of stereo speaker you're using for monitoring, is the culmination of decades of refinements designed to give an accurate representation of a stereo signal which only consists of L & R channels.
Regardless of all of this, the final thing is that you don't need a sub - a combination of two or three drivers is enough to accurately reproduce all frequencies, including low frequency emission.
Again, if you "like" a sub, or want that feel, then that's fine, but this discussion is about producing and mixing, not hifi or making a mini club in your bedroom. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
A: the best engineers don't usually know a thing about acoustics. They work in great rooms were the ability to move the bass source is not necessary as there are no nulls.
Just to correct a few things you've said. IN terms of bass location, yes, it is indeed difficult because the two ways we use to detect location, either by time from ear to ear or amplitude correspond to about 1500Hz and pressure below 800 hz. Now we don't hear phase but pressure and the wavelength of say 80Hz is about 4 metres. So it is actually rather simple. You can't detect bass direction in a room that is small. If you sitting somewhere were the axial modes just coincide with your ears, you might get a false representation.
Bass is not omnidirectional. But you can't and won't hear it in small room. This is just science. We can't actually detect phase, only pressure which you do mention which beings the importance of room modes.
And this is why subs that can be moved so that you can place them in locations were your referencing location does not happen to be a null is something you can't do with speakers. It is the only solution for many rooms with certain speakers. That or get new speakers .
I've presented the only reason one would need to justify a sub. The main issue with monitoring in small rooms are nulls. The ability to place a sub in a different location is the most effective way to treat this.
You are right that a speaker is capable but again, you don't seem to understand why the sub is being used. You can't just move speakers around placing them against a wall, in some ad hock fashion were the idea of stereo image is a joke. you can with a sub. And this is why you can do things in sub par rooms you can't do with just speakers were the drivers are stuck.
Any reference to decades of speaker refinement sort of ignores the fact that people tend to buy speakers and as such, that is were research goes . Speakers don't have to justify a ty room. They can give their flat response and if you happen to have a room that doesn't work, that isn't the speakers fault.
THe biggest culprit for distortion in your chain is IM distortion and that is caused by the membrane trying to reproduce a range that is exceeding its capability. A subwoofer will lower this. Another reason.
I ridicule your 2.1 because it isn't something you perceive. You don't mix in 2.1 even if you have a sub Yuu cannot identify were bass is coming from below 80Hz. Why even use the nomenclature. It serves no purpose. You could have 10 subwoofers. It doesn't make it 2.10. If you have a room were nulls need to be fixed, a subwoofer placed in a strategic location will move those nulls somewhere you aren't sitting.
And i've always prescribed this for people that mix for non specific mediums ie EDM stereo. People that would have bad rooms in the first place.
Your argument is flawless except you don't seem to realize people don't have great rooms, people don't have great speakers, and there is nothing you can do regarding a null except change the source location. Now explain how you are going to do this with 2 speakers which have to be at some form of triangle shape to maintain stereo imaging.
You've heard people say things. They are probably right in the situation they are in. But the simple physics is really not hard to get. How else would you solve a null that can't be solved with trapping which rarely works and moving speakers which in a small room, you really don't have much room. New room, new speakers, or start understanding why subwoofers can help. |
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| Raphie |
REW......
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
Measure your room, apply correction measures (i.e. basstraps etc) then decide if you want to EXTEND your low frequency range
most subwoofers have a gain knob.
A well intergrated sub, helps you mixing
a badly intergrated sub will mess up your mixes |
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| Allied Nations |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Again, this comes down the enjoyment factor as a personal preference, and although you may like to try to recreate a "mini club system" for feel, that's a very tricky thing to get right (i.e. to accurately recreate a club system in your bedroom as a monitor reference standard). Danny Tenaglia has this but on a very serious scale, and that I get, but adding a completely non-standardised sub, without appropriate treatment in your bedroom to make it sound like a club for precision referencing? No so good.
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yeah but who said anything about precision referencing?
sounding like a club and precision referencing dont go together but its the reason i dont like composing on adams and prefer my mids issue ridden mackie 824s |
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