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Article: Roger Linn on Swing & Groove
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| Looney4Clooney |
good read but i still think he is completely oblivious to what drummers actually do that makes something groove and something not groove.
The problem with groove templates is that groove is created by slight imperfections that create tension not just from instrument to instrument but for the drums, from hihat to snare to kick. They are never dead on. If you apply a groove template, you are applying a hard quantization on the entire drum kit killing the concept.
Groove is so easy to understand and quantify but nobody has taken the time to make an app. All you need to do is take any great track, do a spectral analysis which will easily allow you to see the seperate hits of each instrument, and create templates for each channel, and then apply that groove folder or what ever to your things. Then you will get the identical feel.
I'm surprised some master student somewhere hasn't done the work. Its really not that complicated, you will do something that has never been done and ya, if you make it so that it implements well with a DAW or even sell it to a DAW company , some money.
I've done about 20 tracks or so. Takes about 10 minutes for 1 track. But you see how nothing is hitting at the same time. Close, sometimes , when the snare is way behind , not so close but ya, the idea of quantizing everything to 1 grid is identical to hard 16th notes. Its hard quantizing, you are applying it to everything and the tension that would of been there has been lost. .
I also find it funny and sad that he discovered swing by accident. I mean you'd think someone that age had Benny Goodman hammered down his throat on the radio as a kid.
But when i think about it, groove is just something that doesn't matter anymore. It is something that takes a bit of listening to notice and since most music is quantized to , there is a hole generation of people that have never actually heard non quantized music and their brains have not developed the ability to detect the slight variations. I guess as much as it pains me, groove is just not needed even for dance music.
There are about 10-15 songs , classic songs that all have the same drum beat and i remember that it was rather easy to pick them out after 2 seconds. Like Billy Jean and Another one bytes the dust. Same beat and tempo but everyone could tell which was which because they had slightly different grooves. |
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| sako487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
good read but i still think he is completely oblivious to what drummers actually do that makes something groove and something not groove.
The problem with groove templates is that groove is created by slight imperfections that create tension not just from instrument to instrument but for the drums, from hihat to snare to kick. They are never dead on. If you apply a groove template, you are applying a hard quantization on the entire drum kit killing the concept.
Groove is so easy to understand and quantify but nobody has taken the time to make an app. All you need to do is take any great track, do a spectral analysis which will easily allow you to see the seperate hits of each instrument, and create templates for each channel, and then apply that groove folder or what ever to your things. Then you will get the identical feel.
I'm surprised some master student somewhere hasn't done the work. Its really not that complicated, you will do something that has never been done and ya, if you make it so that it implements well with a DAW or even sell it to a DAW company , some money.
I've done about 20 tracks or so. Takes about 10 minutes for 1 track. But you see how nothing is hitting at the same time. Close, sometimes , when the snare is way behind , not so close but ya, the idea of quantizing everything to 1 grid is identical to hard 16th notes. Its hard quantizing, you are applying it to everything and the tension that would of been there has been lost. .
I also find it funny and sad that he discovered swing by accident. I mean you'd think someone that age had Benny Goodman hammered down his throat on the radio as a kid.
But when i think about it, groove is just something that doesn't matter anymore. It is something that takes a bit of listening to notice and since most music is quantized to , there is a hole generation of people that have never actually heard non quantized music and their brains have not developed the ability to detect the slight variations. I guess as much as it pains me, groove is just not needed even for dance music.
There are about 10-15 songs , classic songs that all have the same drum beat and i remember that it was rather easy to pick them out after 2 seconds. Like Billy Jean and Another one bytes the dust. Same beat and tempo but everyone could tell which was which because they had slightly different grooves. |
you could actually do this in FL quite easily
Load up a clean drum loop (preferably one played by a human), throw it in a slicer, bring the notes down to an even level and you have your groove template.
IMO i think groove should exclusively be applied to hats. Off tempo snare and drums just sound weird to me.
I think that because the kickdrum is always so constant that a big variation on the hats would make sound off |
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| evo8 |
| is this Attack Magazine new?? seeing some really good articles on it, the interview with James Holden is excellent |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| quote: | Originally posted by sako487
you could actually do this in FL quite easily
Load up a clean drum loop (preferably one played by a human), throw it in a slicer, bring the notes down to an even level and you have your groove template.
IMO i think groove should exclusively be applied to hats. Off tempo snare and drums just sound weird to me.
I think that because the kickdrum is always so constant that a big variation on the hats would make sound off |
slicer would not recognize the ms difference say in kick and snare sounding at the same time. And Jazz up until bebop was all 4 on the floor. Most producers push their claps well for trance ahead of the snare. But even if you had that one loop, then what about the rest. You just get people applying midi files to things which they dont' really know why they are doing it nor can they tell if it is good.
It isn't something you notice unless you have the ears for it. Most probably don't which is kinda why i honestly think that it is a waste of time given that most people just don't care anymore. The ability to tell small time variances is learned just like noticing pitches and how good your ability to detect wether they are in tune. |
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