|
HELP - DIY Acoustics + ROOM arrangement - Limited OPTIONS
|
View this Thread in Original format
| jhncollins43 |
HEY
Long story short.
Need SOME HELP. I'm clueless !!!
I need to DIY some acoustic Panels. The budget is somehow unlimited, but the options for fiber glass, glasswool, rockwool are limited here ( ROMANIA ) - Or not :) I want to get the best i can from this room, the best from the DIY panels, and i think a big role will be the will be played by the wool or fiber...
I need to do this thing right from the first place...
I already found tons of designs, the wood is cheap, fabric also...
This is my ROOM scheme NOW ( Pic no.1 ) :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lozuo26ak...studio%20v1.jpg
This is how i want to arrange everything in the next days (so i can start DIY my acoustic panels) ( Pic no.2 ) :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xgn5xik3n...studio%20v2.jpg
Room is 400 cm x 250 cm x 260 cm (length x width x height)
- The ROOM/STUDIO will be used mainly for producing electronic music / edm and other in the future. Also MIXING and in the future mastering.
Unfortunately i have to keep in this room all the boxes from all the gear (but i will better arrange them in a few days )
+ i also can't install a door to this room... (see pic no.1)
+ if i put the desk as in pic no.2 , i can't install bass traps in the other side of the room , probably only 1 panel or 2 ( if i need )
I already made a big research 3-4 full days, but i always get tired, and it's a never ending searching loop :)
SO
The PLAN is simple :
1. i will / need to arrange everything as in pic no.2 , as i think it's the best i can get from this space.
2. i want / need to build 9 panels ( 2 bass traps , 3 absorbers in front of the desk , 4 absorbers , 2 on each side of the wall on the first first reflection points ) .
The design will be something like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=***********
3. BEFORE DIY i need to buy , either mineral wool , rock wool OR fiberglass , 50 or 100mm
4. i plan / but not necessary to cover more wall with some of these :
the t.akustik HiLo-P80 - Thomann UK
the t.akustik HiLo-N25 - Thomann UK
EQ Acoustics Classic Wedge Tiles 30 grey - Thomann UK
5. ?! ?!
QUESTIONS :
1. Better/Any suggestions to the arrangement of the room/desk etc ?! i am open to ideas.
2. Not sure if i need more (or what i need ) , if i need absorbers , diffusers or bass traps ?! i am opened to suggestions.
3. What's the best either mineral wool , rock wool OR fiberglass , 50 or 100mm ???
4. HERE IN ROMANIA i found only products from ISOVER, ROCKWOOL and Knauf (but not all the models).
These are the models/products i've found (please just check the names, the info is vague) :
a. Basically, everything from ROCKWOOL : Căutare - rockwool
As i read/heard, some say AIRROCK series especially HD are good, but not sure.
b. Some from Knauf
Vata minerala de sticla pentru acoperisuri inclinate KNAUF INSULATION
c. Some from Knauf + Isover
Vata de sticla
d. Some other from Isover
Bricostore - Totul pentru casa si gradina
Dedeman Vata minerala - Termoizolatii - Constructii - Dedicat planurilor tale
Heard good things about Isover fiberglass UNIROLL PLUS , but still not sure!!!
I did read this : http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm , but can't find any of those in my country...
I would like the ones that i will pick/buy to compete with the OC 703 or 705 , ROXUL , and so on, on the quality if possible or as close as possible!!!
Which one is the best i can buy !? , do i need 50mm , 100mm, or 2x 50 mm !?
5.1 Can you suggest the best design for panels ? and for bass traps too!?
5.2 How much air-grip do i need between panels and the wall.
5.3 The Bass traps , need to be thicker than the other panels ? double ? or it's not necessary !?
6.1 As i said before in the "PLAN" , no.4 ... do i need , it's necessary to cover more wall with some of those ? will make a difference, beside the cool design !?
6.2 I also planned but not sure if it's a good idea to put acoustic foam panels over the DIY panels... ?! or should i hang it as it is and cover more space ?
7. Probably a 2 m height bookshelf will be placed as in pic no 2, and serve as an diffuser ? It's necessary / a good idea !?
8. Did i misses something regarding room treatment, and the quality build of the panels ?
Probably this is it for the moment... i think Acoustics + konnekt 6 soundcard + equator d5 speakers + atm50 headphones will be enough for the next period.
The next step will be a rme fireface and a dac , in the next 1 year... but that's another story!
Any other help will be appreciated!
Thanks for your interest in helping me, and for reading my long POST!!!
All the best! |
|
|
| DJ RANN |
Holy wall of text.
I'll spend some time properly reading this with some notes over this coming weekend, but in the meantime, my primary advice is not buy anything at all until you have the exact arrangement down.
It seem to me that you're getting wrapped up in building/buying/making things before it's actually required.
For your circumstances, rour priorities have to be:
1, Arrange Kit.
2, Properly setup kit.
3, Arrange furniture/boxes.
4, Do room analysis (REQ).
5, Adjust 1 & 3 if 4 reveals anything terrible and go back to step 4
6, Now, and only now, start planning treatment.
One of the biggest mistakes I see people make is starting to buy treatment before they actually understand what is going on with their room or what the problems are. How do you know what bass traps you need and where to put them if you haven't even heard the room or done analysis? Same for diffusers and any other treatment.
You'll be amazed how much of a difference correct placement and arrangement of your kit and furniture will make. It may even mean you end up spending far less on treatment.
One thing I will say about your intended setup is that your speakers aren't going to like being so close to the wall - you need to factor in that they will need at least 30cm behind them to avoid proximity effect, especially if they are rear vented/ported/radiated etc. |
|
|
| jhncollins43 |
Yes indeed, i will place everything in the next 2 days... arrange the desk and the other equipment + furniture and boxes...
Also i will try to do room analysis (REQ).
I only have shure sm57, that will be OK!?
Can you please point me to a thread, post, about how to proper do a REQ?
Also , yes, i will let 30 cm room for the monitors/speakers..
Thanks a lot! |
|
|
| echosystm |
| quote: | Originally posted by jhncollins43
1. Better/Any suggestions to the arrangement of the room/desk etc ?! i am open to ideas.
|
I strongly suggest putting your couch on the back wall, instead of along the side wall. A couch provides absorption, which is why most studios place it behind the monitoring position. Make sure you have at least 50cm between the wall and your monitors. The diagram shows them being placed right up against the wall. Whatever the boxes are on the side wall, you should try to balance them out so they are equal along both sides. Note that moving the couch to the rear wall will allow you to do that.
| quote: | Originally posted by jhncollins43
2. Not sure if i need more (or what i need ) , if i need absorbers , diffusers or bass traps ?! i am opened to suggestions.
|
I think you've actually gone kinda overboard. Your monitors are quite small and are not exactly the most expensive out there. I think you just need 4 bass traps (one for each corner). In a small room like this, that is by far the most important thing. Once you have done that, just buy some foam absorbers and put them either side of the listening position and behind your monitors.
| quote: | Originally posted by jhncollins43
3. What's the best either mineral wool , rock wool OR fiberglass , 50 or 100mm ???
|
Rock wool and mineral wool are the same thing, assuming they haven't mixed in random synthetics and stuff. My understanding is that rock wool is less of a health risk than fiberglass, because the particles tend to be larger. No matter what you use, you must make sure these panels are 100% sealed, or you will be breathing in particles all day and that can give you lung cancer and .
Rock wool also tends to be more dense. Density is important when making bass traps, because you need a lot of mass to absorb low frequencies. The foam "bass traps" people buy from shops have bugger all mass and really only absorb high frequencies.
You definitely want 100mm for bass traps. Aim for around 60kg m^3 density.
| quote: | Originally posted by jhncollins43
4. HERE IN ROMANIA i found only products from ISOVER, ROCKWOOL and Knauf (but not all the models).
|
If you can't find absorption coefficients, I'd just get the cheapest rockwool that has the right mass.
| quote: | Originally posted by jhncollins43
5.1 Can you suggest the best design for panels ? and for bass traps too!?
|
Build a frame out of MDF, which is slightly thinner than the rockwool. For example, if you're using 100mm rockwool, then make the frame 95mm thick. Make sure the frame has a divider through the middle, so it is divided into a top half and a bottom half. staple some wire to one side of the panel and load the two pieces of rockwool in. Now staple wire to the other side and cover the entire thing with a material that won't allow particles to escape.
Dividing the panel into two chambers helps to stop the rockwool from sagging. Making the frame slightly thinner than the rockwool causes the wire to compress it, which also helps to stop it from sagging.
| quote: | Originally posted by jhncollins43
5.2 How much air-grip do i need between panels and the wall.
|
The bass traps should be tall enough to sit on the floor and almost touch the cieling. Ideally, you want them to sit across the corner, so it forms a triangle. The exact air gap size isn't really important in this situation. Just make sure your panels are about 700mm wide and you're good to go.
It's hard to tell from your diagrams what the situation will be around the windows. If you can't have the bass traps across the corners, then you'll need to make two panels per corner and mount them against the wall itself. In that case, a 50mm air gap would be about right. If you make the air gap too big, you won't be able to fit as much absorption in, given the limited space.
| quote: | Originally posted by jhncollins43
5.3 The Bass traps , need to be thicker than the other panels ? double ? or it's not necessary !?
|
Bass traps need to be thicker and more dense than general absorbers. The greater the density, the better low frequencies are absorbed. However, if it is too dense, then high frequencies will actually be reflected. The main goal of absorption is to catch mid to high frequencies, as they are directional. Bass is not directional, which is why you just want to trap it in the corners. As I said earlier though, don't bother making absorbers. Just get some (decent) foam ones from the shop. It's not worth the effort. |
|
|
| jhncollins43 |
Thanks for your reply
As i made a lot of research, i saw that bedroom studios/ production studios/mastering studios have mixed panels/diffusers, traps, and so on... it's not really a pattern to follow, or if it's something standard
I want to make simple acoustic panels and bass traps (double thickness) and i want to make 9-10 and arrange like this : http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/f...rpoints01.l.jpg
But i can't put all the 5 panels on the back of the room... maybe 1 or 2 max
I have a electronic music studio. I have to arrange the desk and the furniture and some empty boxes that can't leave the room, and i need to make the best of my room....
The room is only 4m x 2.5m x 2.6m , but i think it's enough... I use Equator D5 monitors and Behringer Truth B3030A . I got some bad mixes on both, i had OK mixes, but more than 60-70% i get really great results even before mastering... (without any treatment ... and i have to mention i don't have a DOOR in my room )
Will a REQ test tell me exactly the problems in my room ?! and can this influence the DIY of my acoustic panels ?!
I mean can tell me where to focus, and what kind of traps do i need ...
Obviously i will need the standard treatment i plan, maybe the REQ will tell me (after the treatment) that i need to build more and cover more space... or maybe i will need diffusers and things like that... or what's the problem if it's still there...
I'm sure the basic treatment will solve some problems, and arranging the desk/furniture better, and giving 30-50 cm space for the speakers to breath.... also a better position to listen will change the results...
MY Biggest DILEMMA was not probably the arrangement of the room which is somehow standard and limited by the space, neither THE number of panels or arrangement of these..., because i will do the 9-10, probably 50mm the basic ones and 100mm the basstraps, or make them all 100.. and the arrangement is standard too...
... but THE kind of material i should use/buy for the traps/panels... because i don't have too many options...
I can buy some ISOVER, ROCKWOOL or Knauf... but after reading more and more, and researching acoustic forums, knauf universal slab made with ecose are the best... i don't understand to well the term universal slab, but to narrow everything down, here are the only options i have when it comes buying Knauf products ...
We have:
- Knauf TP 112 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - slab
- Knauf TI 140 U (unifi T 039) with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf TI 135 U (unifi T 035) with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf classic 044 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf classic 042 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf classic 040 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf classic 032 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
KNAUF Rockwool KRSK 50 or 100 MM - slab (40kg/m3)
KNAUF Rockwool KRS - 50 MM - slab (30kg/m3)
KNAUF Rockwool EKOBOARD M with ECOSE 5 100/4,8 M2 - slab
KNAUF INSULATION Rockwool (STANDARD) with ECOSE (50mm) - roll
KNAUF TP 116 M (mineral fiber glass ) - 50mm or 100mm - SLAB
KNAUF TP 115 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass ) - 50mm or 100MM - SLAB
KNAUF Rockwool FKD s or S , 100mm or 60mm - SLAB
KNAUF Rockwool DDP RT 100mm - SLAB
Any ideas ?! Which one can compete with OC 703 or 705 ? or is closer?!
Everything will be much clear after we decide wich one is the best to BUY!
Thanks again!!! |
|
|
| beamrider |
You can go for a couple of diffusers and Helmholtz resonators. I've treated my studio that way and it worked
An easy way to analyze your room is to generate a tone from 20hz to 1k,(it's not necessary to go higher because the troubled frequencies are the lowers)
Then while listen to the tone sweep you should place marks at those frequencies where the room "works" I mean when you hear "rumble" or something emphasized.
Then once you have those frequencies, you can calculate your Helmholtz resonator. I don't remember the formula but you can Google it.
And for the resonator construction you can go for a DIY tutorial
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...-made-easy.html
if you have more than one troubled frequency (and I'm sure you will) you will have to build a HR for each frequency.
Let me know if I can help you. |
|
|
| DJ RANN |
While the advice you've been given is useful, I am going to say this one more time:
DO NOT EVEN START WORRYING ABOUT ANY ROOM TREATMENT UNTIL YOU HAVE ARRANGED YOUR ROOM.
And by that, I mean, have a go at arranging it (and take to what echosystem said about the sofa placement being good for absorption), then do REW, then see if you need to rinse and repeat until you have the arrangement right.
Then, AND ONLY THEN, start thinking about treatment. Put it out of your mind until you have your setup in place. Otherwise, you're just getting a boner about making some DIY and not being serious about your project studio.
I see this time and time again; people think treatment is the magic bullet or get wrapped up in making because pro studios have it. Bad placement and incorrect treatment will do more harm than good. Just like guys who complain about their mixing setups but like to master their own tracks...oh snap ;) |
|
|
| jhncollins43 |
Thanks guys... for all your help
This makes sense...
I will do my homework here:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/educational-videos/
http://www.gikacoustics.com/articles/
HERE
http://realtraps.com/howto.htm
http://realtraps.com/info.htm
AND HERE
http://homerecording.com/bbs/genera...oustics-365127/
Meanwhile i will arrange my room and do some EQ tests
Unfortunately i have only 1 option to arrange everything and i can't use the sofa as a absorber on the back wall, because somehow it will block the DOOR (even if i don't have one :) . ALSO the other furniture can't leave the room, and the empty boxes also, so i have to stick with them and arrange them as better as i can... under the desk or something...
At the end i will follow a project like this probably:
http://www.aaronbrownsound.com/571/
I finally found Knauf ECOSE TP 440 here, and i guess is more than enough for what i have to do...
I guess this is it...
I need to stick to this plan and see how it works. I don't doubt that i can't fix all the problems, but i'm sure it will make a big difference...
I'll be glad to receive any other pointers/tips/tricks/help if someone thinks i still need / or forgot something...
I will post updates soon as i advance further!
All the best.
Thanks again! |
|
|
| DJ RANN |
You're using the right resources.
These will help you make what you need but the only way to figure that out exactly, is do do the room analysis.
Then you can start to think about what treatment you might need (and you may find out you need a lot less than you think).
Another thing to make sure you've got right before even thinking about treatment is what your speakers are mounted on.
If they are stands, fill them with Lead shot or sand. If desk mounted, make sure the desk doesn't resonate and you might want to invest in recoil stabilizers.
The D5's are actually great little monitors and although old, the Truths were fantastic monitors for the money.
You need to remember one thing: With the kit you've got, there's no reason you can's do a decent mix in an untreated room. Yes, treatment will help with certain problem areas but it won't help a fraction as much as technique or knowing your kit will. I'm saying: don't get too wrapped up in the idea that room treatment is going to magically fix your mixes - it's actually going to do far less than you think, especially when you have several weird problems with your room as it is (no door, can't put the sofa in the idea place etc). |
|
|
| jhncollins43 |
RANN you are def right... i was to excited about all this thing with the treatment...
I have time and i have the money, and this DIY project was the perfect project to improve just a little my home studio... I like to add gear or do changes and experiment, once in a while... and as soon as something improves in my results/music/mixes i know it's good , but i still keep adding/doing/learning... researching.
I'm not a pro but i learn quick and learn it from pro's
I did good and very bad mixes on both monitors... but both helped me a lot, and as i can see "in my world" , producers, engineers, even with expensive gear can't make sometimes a good product...
So yeah, i'm learning my speakers, and i think it's more than enough for the moment... I like to invest $ in small little steps, to have time to get used with every gear... and this is what i did in the last 3-4 years...
It was a period when i mixed/produced only on ath50 or sony mdr v700 and still have great results...
To warp it up, yes it makes a lot of SENSE now... probably i will need less traps/panels than i think i need, even if i wanted to make a lot of them...
For the moment the equator d5 are on my desk on auralex mopads, but i will add some bricks under too... the B3030A will be on stands (some cheap good ones from thomann i think) with also mopads...
I will A/B with a Presonus Monitor Station, and when i will use ath 50 , when i will need them...
Cheap / old speakers maybe, even if i'm not a pro, i like them, and helped me a lot... i would not subestimate these things... Yes i have money to buy expensive stuff, but i like to stick with little cheap quality stuff, the underdogs ...
I am also taking a lot of online courses, for mixing, mastering, eq... all the about sound quality
Not sure if it's a good idea to add a SUBwoofer to this little room, but i plan to try and see how it goes...
I don't need a big one, 1000euro, i want to test this one for the moment... http://www.thomann.de/ro/the_box_pro_achat_108_suba.htm
I will probably do REQ tests after adding this too, and if i like it i will probably need to add more panels or so!?
And i know it sounds silly but pro quality gear or room treatment/ panels or a sub, makes/can make me feel better and believe it or not improves my work/quality a lot (even some think the gear is not suitable, or i don't need...) And a sub is sexy :)
Thanks again everybody... for any help... it really makes a difference for me!!! |
|
|
| DJ RANN |
Forget buying a sub. Anyone on here can tell you my thoughts on this, but I'll save you the pain and give you the short version:
It will do nothing but up your mixes and ability to mix.
If you really want to know why, click here:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...99#.UweZtvldXng
Or
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...99#.UwebcvldXng
If you like a sub to listen to (I still don't know why but whatever) then fine, but not for monitoring. If anything it will just cause 100 new problems. Your speakers also aren't lacking in bass so there's no need.
Mopads have lost of a lot stock in recent years; if tight bass is what you're after then you'll probably be better off investing in Recoil Stabilizers but generally speaking, spending $200 (per pair) on stabilizers to go under $500 monitors is a little overkill, especially when you can get half way there by filling you monitor stands with lead or sand.
My advice would be to save up and eventually get better monitors like Focal Twins. The Behringer Truth 3030a are OK budget monitors and the D5's are fine budget monitors too, but honestly the way you're going about this is like you want to have a pro studio (i.e. all the treatment etc) and frankly, the single biggest difference you'll notice in the grand scheme of things to your setup would be to get some very high end monitors.
All this treatment and everything else your trying to do will only make what monitors you have sound as good as they can be, and in your case, that's cheap/entry level monitors. |
|
|
| jhncollins43 |
RANN, yes the sub is unnecessary... ill skip that.
The Recoil Stabilizers are indeed a little too expensive but after a little research i've found some cheap DIY solution... a combination bricks, steel/metal, rubber and foam... so i'm gonna try this with the first occasion...
I have a lot of tests to do...
It seams i don't have luck getting the right mineral wool/ rock wool to start with a couple of panels...
i have very limited options now... so i'm gonna buy either rockwool hd/ld even if i wanted knauf ecose...
Anyway... thanks a lot!!! |
|
|
|
|
