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Famous trance tracks in C Major / A Minor (pg. 2)
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| Looney4Clooney |
music theory is invariably used the wrong way and unless you spend the time, which honestly , given the people and how they talk about it, only dave understands it. |And i think he would agree it is just a framwework to sound a certain way. Chord progression or succession , that cncept or field of study began at the turn of the 19th century. So i dont' know. I am nerd that has to know everything.
Using scale degrees says nothing. i can provide a very normal progression using all 12 notes so the concept of , this key uses these notes , well that is why theory is kinda bad in the wrong hand.s
what i said above was really to point out the underlying silliness of music theory. If thye were to rename it, a system to sound like stuff that has been done before, sure. But it is taken way too far. it covers music up till about 1850 and then it falls apart.
regarding that one track paulino posted, that bass tone, i think perhaps you were listening to it on head phone ? Everything was on the root which sounded like G and i think you mentioned an F ?. I didnt 'hear it as an F but i did assume it was a G because i was listening to it on an ipad and i know how bass sounds weird on small systems. Again that doesn't realy say much. if you were on the V of I and used F as a 3rd inversion V chord resolving to I and its first inversion, it would sound very normal. music theory only works whne people understand what it means because it has a specific meaning. Tonality requires a dominant resolution. aolian is not minor. Just alot of baggage for a genre were you can just liten to some pop, use your ears and done.
just to add something.
i am starting a youtube channel were i take 1 trak and dissect it. its music theory but practical stuff. Won't be covering the basics as everyone does that then stops.
ALso, i will be using it as a platform to insult people like um illgates, bassnectar and talking about life and . Its more a comedy show that happens to revolve around theory and how you can use it in EDM. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
again thats the issue in that your idea of theory is what they teach 6 year olds and people tend to just stop there. So it has no use.
Theory ,. is not one theory. It is just a bunch frameworks to parse music and understand it in a way that that is more concrete.
if you learn only shapes on a guitar, and then someone tells you to play the same tune but in a different key , and make sure you use a voicing that doubles the singer, it will take you hours because you only know a shape and it doesdn't transfer.
theory and i mean there really are no books to learn advanced theory because advanced theory is just taking what was done , and then seing how it has been manipulated. The only real tools are scores but well , you can take a mahler symphony, and learn it with a language that will allwo you to say play it on a piano , in any key and do that rather quick because you understand the frame work.
and music and math, and i love both but again they really have very little in common. I mean we use incorrect tunings as far as math is concerned,certain overtones, 7th 11th sound wrong and well if you are a horn, player, you know this. So math and music , there is a basic connection but not much else. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| swing and a miss |
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| inversoundzzz |
the way i know it is for minor key, theres the natural, melodic and harmonic...there all minor scales but they have different notes to make them sound more resolved or pleasing to the ear......I always use natural, the harmonic minor sounds like a classical medival beethoven scale....could be worth experiementing. because seriously somteimes, the natural minor just sounds too proper...really...it's worth a try at adding in the raised 7th note etc...modern songs do use it, i think some modern trance songs do too, I just havent had my ears actively listening for it....I think some of the euro trance has the harmonic minor Im pretty sure...it's those tracks that sound like really "classical" type...you can hear the raised 7th it sounds like youre in transylvania or egypt or something....;)
this is good info on the melodic natural etc
http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/cho...ant-chords.html
Minor keys aren't quite so straightforward as major keys. Two reasons for this, firstly, there are three minor scale types, natural minor, melodic minor and harmonic minor. Secondly, in modern music they are often mixed together. Because of this, minor keys can be ambiguous in terms of strict theory. To get our head around all of this we need to first understand the natural minor.
Natural minor
The scale formula for the natural minor scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7.
The natural minor scale just so happens to share the same notes as the major scale three semitones (half steps) above. We call this the relative major, or from the major scale's perspective, the relative minor. Let's take a look at the scale notes to get a clearer picture.
A major scale: A B C# D E F# G#
To make this a natural minor we need to flatten the third, sixth and seventh scale degree which gives us the following.
A natural minor scale. A B C D E F G
You can see that these are the same notes as we find in C major (C D E F G A B), the only difference is the starting note. From this it's easy to see why they relate to each other. The relative minor of C major is A and the relative major of A minor is therefore C.
This similarity between the relative scales also means they happen to share the same chords. Chords belonging to the key of C major will be the same set of chords that belong to the key of A minor. The only difference is the order they are presented. As we've discussed already, In major keys the chord order is maj min min maj maj min dim. In the minor key the order becomes min dim maj min min maj maj. So even though both keys share the same set of chords, the chord progressions will be different. For instance, a I IV V progression in C major is C F G. In A minor it becomes Am Dm Em. You can see this by comparing the charts below.
C Major
I ii iii IV V vi vii
C Maj D Min E Min F Maj G Maj A Min B Dim
A Minor
i ii III iv v VI VII
A Min B Dim C Maj D Min E Min F Maj G maj
The Cadence
We need to divert our attention a little for a moment before we can understand the why the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales came about in the first place. I'm not going to give a detailed explanation about cadences, we'll just brush over the main points. More information can be found at wikipedia about the cadence.
Generally speaking, the cadence is what reinforces the home key and mostly refers to the V-I transition in a chord progression. In the major scale, the last note is one semitone below the root and it's called the leading tone, as the name suggests, it leads nicely into the tonic (root note). In the key of C major it is the B note. The "five chord" in a major key contains this leading tone and has a strong pull back to the tonic. This strengthens and highlights the key. In the key of C, the G sounds like it wants to resolve back to C. If we make the five chord dominant (G7) then this "pull" becomes even stronger.
The leading tone in the natural minor scale however is a whole tone below the root and it doesn't have such a strong pull. For composers this makes it a bit harder to really establish the key. The five chord in a minor key doesn't have the same effect as it does in a major key because the leading tone is not as close to the tonic. You can easily try this yourself. Play a i iv v progression in the key of A minor. The chords are Amin Dmin and Emin. The five chord (Emin) sounds Ok and resolves reasonably well back to the A minor but it's still fairly weak sounding.
Harmonic minor
The solution to improving this weaker sounding cadence in minor keys is to raise the leading tone of the natural minor by a half step which results in a stronger pull back to the tonic. Using A natural minor as an example, this would mean making the G become G# which in turn will make the E minor chord, or the V chord, become E major. This raised seventh gives us a new scale formula 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 and we call it the harmonic minor scale.
It's now that things start to get a little bit complicated. This raised seventh creates a three semitone interval from the sixth scale degree. Although this might not be a problem in modern music, years ago it was considered unnatural and non melodic.
Melodic minor
The answer to the above problem was to also raise the sixth scale degree to eliminate the large interval created by raising the seventh. This led to a smoother sounding scale, making it easier to create natural flowing melodies. The scale formula for the melodic minor is therefore 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7.
This whole idea came about so as to make the leading tone have a stronger pull back to the tonic. This means that it's only important when the melody was ascending in pitch, when descending it doesn't have the same effect. The end result was to use the melodic minor while ascending and then revert back to the natural minor when descending.
Minor Keys In Modern Music
As usual things adapt over time and these days our ears are more used to hearing music in many different flavours. Minor keys now tend to be a bit of a mix, anything goes really and all three of the minor scales can get used in the same piece of music. The melodic minor doesn't see a lot of use in average popular music, mostly jazz. The natural minor is still the most commonly used for minor keys and you will often hear the harmonic minor used for the V - I cadence.
For an example, a very common minor chord progression is the i - bVII - bVI - V. In the key of A minor you might recognise these chords used in many songs, A min, G maj, F maj, E maj. This chord progression is all in natural minor except for the V chord (E maj) which temporarily switched to harmonic minor for the V-i cadence. If you were to solo or create melodies for this progression then you would use the harmonic minor scale over the E chord and natural minor for the rest.
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| inversoundzzz |
| just messing around I think the melodic minor has potential way more than harmonic...imo |
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| Looney4Clooney |
You are conflating scales with keys. All 3 minor scales , or I should say the minor key is based on all 3.
Chords come after counterpoint, not the other way around . Scales define keys, not the other way around,
Beethoven was mid 19 the century. He was known more for his push into romanticism than his early classical style.
And major keys encapsulate minor keys. So to state one is more complex . The minor key doesn't follow.
And again you bring up a chord progression, well first off ii in the minor mode would be half dismissed and lead up a 4rth, in your example , you are using a dominant substitution dim7 albeit incomplete.
But I have a feeling this is all Chinese. And this is why it's stupid. Because it is ome way to tslk about music and since nobody seems to be using the sctual terms, what is the point.
I think that barring proper formal learning, you just need to listen to music and copy, your way of making sense of it is theory . But when you use a specific kind. Well I mean I feel like you just trap your self in a box. Because you have this false notion of what is or isn't allowed. |
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| inversoundzzz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
You are conflating scales with keys. All 3 minor scales , or I should say the minor key is based on all 3.
Chords come after counterpoint, not the other way around . Scales define keys, not the other way around,
I think that barring proper formal learning, you just need to listen to music and copy, your way of making sense of it is theory . But when you use a specific kind. Well I mean I feel like you just trap your self in a box. Because you have this false notion of what is or isn't allowed. |
I didn't understand that, thanks. I know what your saying...it just happened to me when I was writing something. I just flung off a nice progression that I knew it was in natural Cm but then I started trying to mess with the patterns based on the melodic mionor....and it just started sounding flat and bad. When you only have theory and no practical songwriting experience it isnt good. It's better to know the patterns and go by your ear than be thinking about all the theory. I think knowing the patterns and just keeping some theory in the back of your mind is good. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
which is cool but i guess what i m saying is that when you start using a style of notation, well there are certain things you need to account for and if you don't , well it is sort of meaningless because that is the whole point so that people can understand music and talk about it so others get it.
how you orient your self is just as good as anything else. None of the greaet composers studied functional harmony. It is a very new thing.
Hte problem is nomenclature. You either use the correct way or nobody has any idea what we are talking about. And ya, those little numbers and chord symbols , well they are useless without understanding why and thats why i theory , well you get it. |
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| inversoundzzz |
lol, from my experience I know that theory is not my strongpoint. I try to make sure I know what's going on at least somewhat, like why that note sound "correct" when it follows that note to end a phrase etc. it takes a while to just "know" that that note go there, where "it's supposed to be". I feel confident with that at this point in my music adventures...but now I am trying to learn... "WHY" does the note fit there...that's what I am trying to learn recently, and that's where the theory helps, from my perspective.
but I didnt know that the scale comes first before the key...at least it isn't cemented into my head why the scales dictate the key...so what comes first...the scale then the chords then the key? |
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| Looney4Clooney |
Modes which became keys which created chords thru counterpoint.
The where and why are trends, there is no right answer unless you are trying to sound like western tonality. Voice leading is probably more involve than chords or scales . As long as it makes sense to you I suppose, |
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| inversoundzzz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
Modes which became keys which created chords thru counterpoint.
The where and why are trends, there is no right answer unless you are trying to sound like western tonality. Voice leading is probably more involve than chords or scales . As long as it makes sense to you I suppose, |
never heard of voice leading before gonna read up on that now..thanks |
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