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Limiting The Final Mix (pg. 2)
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| zodiac9 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Raphie
2. limit just to prevent the odd overshoot, not to increase volume
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I've recently started doing this, as of 2 weeks ago. Those odd overshoots are pesky and unpredictable. I find it doesn't take but a tad of limiting to tame them. I add an extra volume control to the master channel, just before the limiter, to bring the mix volume up since I mix very low. I bring the volume up until the mix peaks at the volume I want, -2db, -1db, ect. I use the limiter sparingly, only to keep any strays from jumping above the volume I desire.
After years of trial and error, experimenting, this is where I've ended up. I no longer use the gain control as the sole way to bring up the mix volume. In fact, I like to leave it at 0db, only there to tame the overshoots.
So now, I feel like I've been mastering the wrong way all these years. OK, no one complained about my mixes before, and I never participated in the loudness war. Still, I wonder if my old mixes could have sounded better. Makes me think we should leave the mastering to the Pros, since a lot of us don't know what we are doing. Not practical though, since there is no return on the investment. This is a do it yourself business, for better or worse. |
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| Soyagua |
Mastering is very delicate art. One of my previous projects was mastered in Chartmakers (everything in Finland, Darude in the past), which is the company to go to in Finland. They charged ~$120 a track, so it was an expensive experience. But when you look at these guys' gear, you start to understand what is required for pro-level mastering.
I'm not doubting that you can get great results at home. Even pro quality if you got the skills and speakers. There are endless amounts of expensive hardware and software limiters and compressors that can help you get closer. Raphie's 1, 2, 3 list is a good way to start. |
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| Raphie |
Yes, mastering is expensive, my chain alone is already 12k
Put 15k for monitoring on top
Then another 3k for acoustics
Just purchased a SSL SIGMA as well, there went another 4k
Then cabling 3k
Then i'm not even talking daw, madi interfaces, avid controllers etc etc... |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by zodiac9
I've recently started doing this, as of 2 weeks ago. Those odd overshoots are pesky and unpredictable. I find it doesn't take but a tad of limiting to tame them. I add an extra volume control to the master channel, just before the limiter, to bring the mix volume up since I mix very low. I bring the volume up until the mix peaks at the volume I want, -2db, -1db, ect. I use the limiter sparingly, only to keep any strays from jumping above the volume I desire.
After years of trial and error, experimenting, this is where I've ended up. I no longer use the gain control as the sole way to bring up the mix volume. In fact, I like to leave it at 0db, only there to tame the overshoots.
So now, I feel like I've been mastering the wrong way all these years. OK, no one complained about my mixes before, and I never participated in the loudness war. Still, I wonder if my old mixes could have sounded better. Makes me think we should leave the mastering to the Pros, since a lot of us don't know what we are doing. Not practical though, since there is no return on the investment. This is a do it yourself business, for better or worse. |
I can;t quite tell from the tehcnical detail you've posted but you might very well be completely ing your gain staging and 0dbfs calibration (the entire reason you keep the master at zero).
What you're essentially doing right now is mixing (too low), routing it to a Sub Master and then pulling up the sub master (like it's a global group fader) then going in to the master.
You realize that it's totally unnecessary?
Just mix all your tracks in to the master fader by bringing them all up a little. You could probably just fader group them and pull them all up a little (every DAW supports this and does it while maintaining the relation between each fader).
If your problem is that you want the Volume low when mixing, then turn your speakers down via a passive monitor control which can be had for $60.
Then when you're done mixing turn the passive control back up to full and you have your calibrated point again as a final check.
Otherwise, you have no standard for what level you're mixing at. |
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| Raphie |
correct, leave your master fader at unity, don't touch it, it's your beacon, your lighthouse, your baseline, how you want to call it. DON'T TOUCH IT.
then learn your gain staging by mixing into an EMPTY, that's right EMPTY master bus inserts. nothing in there, no EQ. no compression, no limiting, no fatnerss saturators what ever.
Then build your mix by riding the instrument channels, WITHOUT subgroups so that you get a sense of what kind of instrument channel volumes you need to get a mix close to, but not overschooting 0dBFS.
Once you've got your mix back up and running, you can work with subgroups. compression, EQ BUT..... try not to change your instrument faders, ofcourse you can, but the purpose of this excerzise is to understand the gain staging influence of your plugins. Too much gain will kill you.
you need to have a lighthouse to build your mix around that's your masterbus @ unity without any crap on it. |
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| optik |
I absolutely agree with ralphie for most music this technique works, but for a lot of mainstream edm at the moment, the limiter is used as a creative tool - the sound of limiting has become not an artifact, but an aesthetic decision.
There is an argument for mixing to a limiter, or even intentionally mixing to a serious limiter if this is the kind of sound that you want to achieve.
I'm not suggesting you should do this all the time (especially the super squashing) |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
I absolutely agree with ralphie for most music this technique works, but for a lot of mainstream edm at the moment, the limiter is used as a creative tool - the sound of limiting has become not an artifact, but an aesthetic decision.
There is an argument for mixing to a limiter, or even intentionally mixing to a serious limiter if this is the kind of sound that you want to achieve.
I'm not suggesting you should do this all the time (especially the super squashing) |
You're right, but it's also why so much mainstream music sounds so ing terrible; just big noises like the pryda snare limited and reverbed by a 1000%, all that ping pong house - it's all FX and no substance.
The only time you get any dynamic range is on the reverb tails and those SHM moments of silence at the end of every 2 bars, every other sound is just squashed to as a "creative tool" to create an Aesthetic, and frankly I can't wait until the last drop of blood drips out of the dying bro-house scene.
There is an art to mixing in to a limiter for a specific sound, but the guys who do it are using vintage LA2A's or Urei 1176's - not just slapping the fruity or logic compressor on the master lol.
Again, that's why in these discussions, it's best to just say don't put a limiter on the master, because 99% of people who try it, don't have a ing clue what they're doing, especially when they watch that video with Guetta where he's saying everything is red lined and everything is limited. |
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| Raphie |
Agreed, once you understand gainstaging you can start to experiment. But if you don't grasp the concept you'll en up with Distorted mush without punch.
But by all means yes experiment, but in a controlled manner. |
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| PaULiN0 |
| I can stop laughin. What you need is sausage fattener on top of an internal expander which beats a limiter all by itself together. |
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| zodiac9 |
OK, I won't touch the master fader anymore.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Just mix all your tracks in to the master fader by bringing them all up a little. You could probably just fader group them and pull them all up a little (every DAW supports this and does it while maintaining the relation between each fader).
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That sounds like the way I want to go. Yes, that would do the trick.
| quote: | Originally posted by Raphie
then learn your gain staging by mixing into an EMPTY, that's right EMPTY master bus inserts. nothing in there, no EQ. no compression, no limiting, no fatnerss saturators what ever.
Then build your mix by riding the instrument channels, WITHOUT subgroups so that you get a sense of what kind of instrument channel volumes you need to get a mix close to, but not overschooting 0dBFS.
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Yep, gonna try it that way. I get what you guys are saying. Should I use a limiter to keep overshoots below 0db? |
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| PaULiN0 |
| Oh and FYI FutureNewbie is trance elevation. |
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| future_newbie |
| quote: | Originally posted by PaULiN0
Oh and FYI FutureNewbie is trance elevation. |
Paulinho seems like you forgot once again to take your pills. |
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