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Ben Affleck vs Sam Harris on Islamophobia (pg. 4)
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| Serial Killer |
| quote: | Originally posted by OrangestO
Similar to black people in America? |
:o:o:o |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by OrangestO
Similar to black people in America?
Hmmm. Interesting. |
False equivalence; Black Americans are a somewhat unique subgroup in that they endured hundreds of years of slavery and systematic oppression the US has yet to fully dismantle. And, interestingly, it was Arab Muslims in Africa who were largely complicit in that same slave trade, as white Europeans would have been more susceptible to local microbes.
Not at all implying that Islam turns one into a thug, merely that there are seriously hundreds of passages that absolutely enable that sort of behaviour. |
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| OrangestO |
Aren't many of the Muslims scattered throughout Europe victims of the oppression in the countries they came from? I'm not saying it's equivalent. I just don't think it's as black and white as people like to think. I'm sure blacks in America and Muslims in Europe can relate to some of the same socioeconomic factors that inhibit them in some capacities. I'm not really read on the topic; I'm just talking from first-hand experience with Canadian Muslims, lol.
I did notice there's a widespread disdain for Muslims across Europe, though. It seems like more so than here in America. And among the younger generation. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Even better was that Affleck stated that Turkey is a "Muslim Country". |
That's not incorrect. Turkey is certainly not an Islamic state, however, and -as you mentioned- that tends to make all the difference. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chimney
Further more, as far as I'm aware, they're at the top of criminality statistics in countries like UK and others. |
What does "top of criminality statistics" mean, exactly?
There are plenty of Muslims here, but the majority of them are far from vicious criminals. Most of them run small businesses, usually as a family and friends operation. Corner shops, fast-food joints, taxi drivers, that kind of thing. You do get plenty of them in the drug trade, and a fair few small time plastic gangsters, but it’s probably a small percentage of the overall population. There is some inevitable right-wing hatred of them flying around but generally I think the British public are pretty used to Muslims by now. The main complaints against them is that they can be very rude and that you should always count your change from them. It’s worth remembering that most of them are immigrants from poorer and less socially developed backgrounds and when they come here that’s the social strata they continue to inhabit. If you stack them up against the British lower classes I don’t think they’re guilty of being any more rude, unpleasant or prone to petty criminality. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by OrangestO
Aren't many of the Muslims scattered throughout Europe victims of the oppression in the countries they came from? I'm not saying it's equivalent. I just don't think it's as black and white as people like to think. I'm sure blacks in America and Muslims in Europe can relate to some of the same socioeconomic factors that inhibit them in some capacities. I'm not really read on the topic; I'm just talking from first-hand experience with Canadian Muslims, lol.
I did notice there's a widespread disdain for Muslims across Europe, though. It seems like more so than here in America. And among the younger generation. |
I don't think you're wrong at all- socioeconomic factors play a tremendous role. Both domestically and whatever nation they might have emigrated from, income inequality is the omnipresent motivation behind the majority of crime, no matter the race, culture, background, etc.
To the extreme, we see the rise of likewise extremist right-wing ideology in zones of economic destabilization. ISIL itself is not merely fueled by sectarian grievances and vicious passages in the Quran and hadith, but by the systemic oppression (perceived and otherwise) of Sunnis in Iraq, not limited to the insensitive bungling of al-Maliki in securing a fair Iraq; a level playing ground for people to prosper was, in human fashion, traded to favour his tribe rather than the interests of the nation.
But even dialed back a notch, westerners are baffled that even educated and generally well-off Muslims from the US and UK could fly off to join ISIL. It's just not limited to economic and religious factors- there is a kind of cultural currency at stake, too. People are scratching their heads: how could you join those savages willingly? I won't pretend to know the experience of a brown person, but in a largely white society, it's not difficult to infer that, no matter what they achieve, they'll always just be immigrants, or the child of immigrants, and so on. Foreigners- and all manner of offensive denominations that follow. This Islamic State arises, and you know their language, their culture, how to look like them, think as they do- you could be a Director, a Lieutenant, a General. You could become vastly wealthy, earn respect, seize opportunity- things that simply aren't available to you in self-appraised advanced nations.
Quelling religious foolishness is difficult as it is; wresting ambition out of humans, however, might be patently impossible. |
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| enydo |
If they would just put the silly holy book down and listen to REASON we wouldn't have all these issues.
TUT TUT TUT |
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| enydo |
| It's my place to critique them culturally as mine is clearly superior and I've tossed off the dry, suffocating husk of Christianity. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by enydo
It's my place to critique them culturally as mine is clearly superior and I've tossed off the dry, suffocating husk of Christianity. |
I know you're being sarcastic (ROFL!!!), but moral relativism is widespread and detestable in this case. I mean who are WE to criticize the policies of Islamist nations when racist cops gun down black teens in the streets of America??
http://en.iranwire.com/features/3648/
It's just their culture, dude. Don't be a bigot!! |
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| OrangestO |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
But even dialed back a notch, westerners are baffled that even educated and generally well-off Muslims from the US and UK could fly off to join ISIL. It's just not limited to economic and religious factors- there is a kind of cultural currency at stake, too. People are scratching their heads: how could you join those savages willingly? I won't pretend to know the experience of a brown person, but in a largely white society, it's not difficult to infer that, no matter what they achieve, they'll always just be immigrants, or the child of immigrants, and so on. Foreigners- and all manner of offensive denominations that follow. This Islamic State arises, and you know their language, their culture, how to look like them, think as they do- you could be a Director, a Lieutenant, a General. You could become vastly wealthy, earn respect, seize opportunity- things that simply aren't available to you in self-appraised advanced nations.
Quelling religious foolishness is difficult as it is; wresting ambition out of humans, however, might be patently impossible. |
Although the cases are few and far between, this is an excellent point. |
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| Chimney |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
What does "top of criminality statistics" mean, exactly?
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Stuff like http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...kshire-28939089 don't exactly paint a good image. I'm not prone on debating factors of a different country, it was something which was read a while ago and given my personal experience with them, seemed to hit the spot.
In Sweden, the far right political party which wants to regulate immigrant influx has grown to be the third largest party in the country.
Not to mention other rather peculiar news such as the fact that ethnical Englishmen are a minority in London: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2246288/Census-2011-UK-immigrant-population-jumps-THREE-MILLION-10-years.html |
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