I heard there are some stories and also some differences about the german vs dutch EDM scene.
From what I've heard, apparently German's were dominating the electronic music scene in the early half of the 90s... this includes them being credited as being one of the first pioneers of the classic/acid trance sounds with the help of Sven Vath, Paul van Dyk, Harald Bluchel (Cosmic Baby), and the infamous Eye Q label.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Germans were rising from the underground in the early to mid 90s and were about to reach out to the entire European market?
And is it true that somewhere in 96 or 97, the Dutch came up with their own sound and formula of trance and electronic music and sort of, just took the show? I heard somewhere that the German were in silent acquiesce and were quite angry about the sudden rising popularity from the dutch EM scene. The dutch EDM artists are Ferry Corsten, Tijs Verwest (Tiesto), and Armin van Buuren, and more people like that from the Blackhole Recordings group.
Very few Germans speak out about it, I haven't seen Sven Vath or Harald Bluchel talk about it, but back then you could see Paul Van Dyk making comments about his feelings towards the Dutch people. Sometimes PVD would talk about discontent feelings.
So anyways, I wanted to ask if any of this is true, or is this all just made up? I don't speak dutch or german, nor was I old enough to see any of this as a kid in the 90s....
AlphaStarred
The Dutch scene was well underway in the early 90's (mostly hardcore/gabber), and at the same time, this German production was released in '92 (albeit from a US (NY) label):
It was a "diss" against the original:
- which was interestingly enough also released on NY and German labels, and the same producer (who I believe is Dutch) had releases on other German labels, as well. Go figure.
I think most cd's I bought in Germany in the 90's and frequently visited Belgium.
Honestly I never used the term Dutch trance and over here I don't think it existed, at least I can't remember hearing it at the time.
Next to that I still think it sounds kind of stupid.
I think those show a little why to me it never felt like Dutch Trance even existed.
Tiesto, Ferry and Armin in my view just were three of the many DJ/producers. They were there at the right time when Euro Dance went down and festivals were getting very popular and professional.
Since 'they', e.g. ID&T, knew how to get things done right in a commercial way, all three have benefit from this experience which was gained with all Euro Dance acts and Thunderdome like events earlier.
I could be wrong, but that's my view on this while being squeezed by Germany and Belgium in the very south of our country.
Trance-M
quote:
Originally posted by AlphaStarred
The Dutch scene was well underway in the early 90's (mostly hardcore/gabber)
No, gabber was just one of the genres. Euro Dance and Happy Hardcore also were big and had a lot in common with acts from Germany, Belgium and Italy.
Also the club scene was very popular with the iT and Club Roxy in Amsterdam probably as the best known. When you listen to this playlist you get an impression how trance also came into the club scene, which also was known as a gay scene.
An example of an Dutch early 90's track which wasn't gabber:
AlphaStarred
quote:
Originally posted by Trance-M
No, gabber was just one of the genres.
That's what I said. Was Euro Dance or Happy Hardcore bigger in the early 90's than the Hardcore/Gabber scene there? Perhaps the latter was more underground, I wouldn't know.
kosmotika
As far as Dutch producers go, both Vincent De Moor and Ferry Corsten started off producing gabber. Tiesto did a bit of gabber as well, that shared some similarities to the 'anthem rave' stuff that was popular in the early 90s e.g. LA Style. He also did some 'rave' style trance that guys like Gary D and Yves Deruyter were known for. Armin started off producing Dutch house, with deep funky basslines and organ chords and some trance as well.
Ultimately the way I see it, comparing the 2 throughout the 90s, the Dutch typically made music that was good for listening to, but the Germans (and Italians as well) generally made music that was good to dance & party to. I ultimately blame the Dutch for the death of 'club music' on the whole. The Dutch version of trance is this slow, melodramatic stuff that has now become saturated with corny pop vocals and 3 minute boring-as-balls breakdowns that empty dancefloors aside from the kiddies who fancy themselves ravers who are perfectly content standing in place with their arms half-heartedly raised upward for 2 hours. Drop a proper German trance, techno, happy hardcore, whatever record on any day of the week, put it up at 160 and that place will fill up. The success of German electronic music festivals like Loveparade, Mayday and Nature One are enough evidence of that. Nobody wants to dance to typical Dutch trance, even if it's well done. It's usually just not club friendly. Most of what I play comes from Germany and it excites the crowd loads more than the guy after me playing uplifting trouse.
Trance-M
quote:
Originally posted by AlphaStarred
That's what I said. Was Euro Dance or Happy Hardcore bigger in the early 90's than the Hardcore/Gabber scene there? Perhaps the latter was more underground, I wouldn't know.
For sure they were more mainstream and more popular as also acts from Germany, Belgium and Italy (and more) were active in that scene.
quote:
Originally posted by kosmotika
As far as Dutch producers go, both Vincent De Moor and Ferry Corsten started off producing gabber.
That's not entirely true I think, these were their first releases when I'm correct. It's much closer to L.A. Style (Wessel van Diepen who later started Alice Deejay and Vengaboys):
Originally posted by kosmotika
Drop a proper German trance, techno, happy hardcore, whatever record on any day of the week, put it up at 160 and that place will fill up. The success of German electronic music festivals like Loveparade, Mayday and Nature One are enough evidence of that. Nobody wants to dance to typical Dutch trance, even if it's well done. It's usually just not club friendly. Most of what I play comes from Germany and it excites the crowd loads more than the guy after me playing uplifting trouse.
To be honest, I doubt most people would recognize those tracks as Dutch Trance. Against festivals like Love Parade, Mayday and Nature One you than should place all what ID&T did, Thunderdome, Trance Energy, Sensation, Innercity, Tommorowland.
Paul van Dyk also played some "Dutch Trance" sounding tracks at Sensation White 2004 which was not even made by Dutch producers.
Did he just adapt?:
kosmotika
quote:
Originally posted by Trance-M
That's not entirely true I think, these were their first releases when I'm correct. It's much closer to L.A. Style (Wessel van Diepen who later started Alice Deejay and Vengaboys):
I'm a huge VDM fan...earliest thing I have from him is from 1992 (a year before his Fix To Fax release) is a gabber release under the alias Fourth Genius. He also put out a hardcore EP under the name Gmoork sometime in 93.
As for Ferry, he had this absolutely awful gabber christmas CD that I was thinking was much older than it is so I'll concede that.
quote:
Originally posted by Trance-M To be honest, I doubt most people would recognize those tracks as Dutch Trance. Against festivals like Love Parade, Mayday and Nature One you than should place all what ID&T did, Thunderdome, Trance Energy, Sensation, Innercity, Tommorowland.
Paul van Dyk also played some "Dutch Trance" sounding tracks at Sensation White 2004 which was not even made by Dutch producers.
Did he just adapt?:
Thunderdome I didn't consider since I'm not much a fan of gabber/hardcore so it slipped my mind. Trance Energy I feel wasn't big enough in the 90s to warrant a place next to those festivals I listed; its hayday was in the 2000s. This does remind me of a very important Swiss event though: ENERGY! It has since turned into garbage as is to be expected (their website is advertising David Guetta), but was a very big event in the 90s.
Sensation, again, a product of the 2000s. Innercity I don't see as 'massive', but that still was dominant in the 2000s. Tomorrowland is very much a modern thing.
Paul van Dyk is the original big name sellout in my opinion. He went commercial before any of the other top DJs at that time did. Tiesto, Armin, Ferry and the like were all making trance up to the mid-2000s but Paul was primarily making pop music as early as 2002.
Then again, why I disregard things that happened in the 2000s in this post is because I really feel like the German trance sound started to fade out around 2001 with the emergence of Dutch commercial acts like Ian Van Dahl, Dee Dee, Lasgo, etc and Dutch producers such as Ferry Corsten and Rank 1 who were all very notable for being incredibly "supersaw heavy" in their work around 99-01; suddenly everyone was using arpeggiated supersaws and rolling saw basslines and it just got more and more oversaturated as the years went on. There's some good tracks out of the 02-05 period but afterwards I've had a difficult time finding anything that sounds like the traditional stuff which is ultimately why nobody really listens to trance anymore and why it's considered a niche genre. When you say 'trance music' to your average person, they don't think of the older stuff that used to sell out entire stadiums. They think the slow, top 40 pop crap that's being shoveled out by Armin and his cronies nowdays that can hardly fill a bar room dancefloor and they say they don't like it. I haven't met a person yet who hasn't liked the music when I've played some older stuff. Trance is most definitely dead for the time being, but I really believe it can come to life again, because it is enjoyable music, but nobody (or very few) is making it to be enjoyed anymore. They're trying to make either music they can Jesus pose to or something that'll earn em a quick buck off radio airtime. There's no heart in the music these guys are making and ultimately I feel like ultimately the Dutch are responsible for that.
Trance-M
quote:
Originally posted by kosmotika
I'm a huge VDM fan...earliest thing I have from him is from 1992 (a year before his Fix To Fax release) is a gabber release under the alias Fourth Genius. He also put out a hardcore EP under the name Gmoork sometime in 93.
As for Ferry, he had this absolutely awful gabber christmas CD that I was thinking was much older than it is so I'll concede that.
Actually my intention wasn't really to show their first releases, but to show that they weren't only into gabber as that would provide a wrong picture in my view. Also Tiesto's early releases were all over the place (in several genres). I should have rephrased that part.
quote:
Originally posted by kosmotika
Thunderdome I didn't consider since I'm not much a fan of gabber/hardcore so it slipped my mind. Trance Energy I feel wasn't big enough in the 90s to warrant a place next to those festivals I listed; its hayday was in the 2000s. This does remind me of a very important Swiss event though: ENERGY! It has since turned into garbage as is to be expected (their website is advertising David Guetta), but was a very big event in the 90s.
Sensation, again, a product of the 2000s. Innercity I don't see as 'massive', but that still was dominant in the 2000s. Tomorrowland is very much a modern thing.
I meant ID&T as company, all events together. Don't forget Germany has five times more inhabitants compared to Holland. Our events never could get that big.
quote:
Originally posted by kosmotika
Paul van Dyk is the original big name sellout in my opinion. He went commercial before any of the other top DJs at that time did. Tiesto, Armin, Ferry and the like were all making trance up to the mid-2000s but Paul was primarily making pop music as early as 2002.
Then again, why I disregard things that happened in the 2000s in this post is because I really feel like the German trance sound started to fade out around 2001 with the emergence of Dutch commercial acts like Ian Van Dahl, Dee Dee, Lasgo, etc and Dutch producers such as Ferry Corsten and Rank 1 who were all very notable for being incredibly "supersaw heavy" in their work around 99-01; suddenly everyone was using arpeggiated supersaws and rolling saw basslines and it just got more and more oversaturated as the years went on. There's some good tracks out of the 02-05 period but afterwards I've had a difficult time finding anything that sounds like the traditional stuff which is ultimately why nobody really listens to trance anymore and why it's considered a niche genre. When you say 'trance music' to your average person, they don't think of the older stuff that used to sell out entire stadiums. They think the slow, top 40 pop crap that's being shoveled out by Armin and his cronies nowdays that can hardly fill a bar room dancefloor and they say they don't like it. I haven't met a person yet who hasn't liked the music when I've played some older stuff. Trance is most definitely dead for the time being, but I really believe it can come to life again, because it is enjoyable music, but nobody (or very few) is making it to be enjoyed anymore. They're trying to make either music they can Jesus pose to or something that'll earn em a quick buck off radio airtime. There's no heart in the music these guys are making and ultimately I feel like ultimately the Dutch are responsible for that.
I don't think in the 90's the Dutch DJ's were having an effect on the Germans. If then it was in the early 2000's in my opinion.
To me trance never died and I still think it's bull to blame a couple of successful Dutch DJ's for that. I never worshiped any of them as others do. Others like Jam & Spoon and The Mackenzie went commercial long before our DJ's did, so I wasn't surprised by the fact they did at one point.
