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The longest break (pg. 4)
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
This is one of the reasons I switched to hardware. With software, there was too much thinking and the inclination to try and make a track 'perfect' which goes against the very purpose of all art. When I was working without a computer, I was able to finish tracks/live jams in a single night, sometimes - even more than one, at times.
I'm not against using the computer/software for tracks, but unlike hardware, there is so much to choose from, that I think it often hinders creativity, spontaneity and the inspiration to just get a track done. |
I know I don't try to get creative without my Yamaha KX61. And the fact it can be any synth, or set of drums that I want it to be is a bonus...
Though analog synths would really be fun.
As far as creativity, obviously it's person dependant...I love browsing through a very large variety of synth VST presets...My mood might be different on a day I'm feeling musically inclined...and sometimes it's that oddball preset that sparks an idea.
I also like starting with an init. VST synth patch, and working on it for a few hours...coming up with a unique sound that gets me excited...then trying to start a track with it.
I would imagine someone who is primarily a kinesthetic learner (I'm one of these), would prefer to have more of an analog setup. Something they can get their hands on and engage physically. And I do.
Paying attention to one's own workflow, and realizing what works best for them, should be top priority for any producer. Getting tired of doing something a certain way? Should probably ditch it and try something new. A definition of insanity : figure out what doesn't work, keep doing it.
Mainly, I believe thinking about production value destroys the musical creation process...or at least, slows it down greatly. I'm finding this entirely true for myself, and I've seen a few others mention it. Analytical thinking is basically competing with Creative thinking, and they *usually* don't get along too well together.
I churned out the First build, main theme, breakdown, 2nd buildup, 2nd theme and ending in roughly 2-3 hours on the latest tune I've been working on. I spent about maybe 10 minutes of that initially roughing out the mix, and maybe using a quick and dirty EQ / Compressor here and there on some things to make the mix tolerable.
Soon as I started thinking more heavily about the mix, and getting this EQ'd perfectly, or perfect dynamics with something else...I lost interest in the musical / creative aspect of the song, almost immediately...And I still have an intro and transition cleanup to do...If it wasn't as close to being finished as it is, I'd probably say it start something new...after a break...
From now on, I will NEVER think about the production value after I've made my instrument selection, until everything is in, arranged, and I'm bored with nothing left to do. Tired of losing potential songs to this. If the sounds are well selected, there shouldn't be as much need for that stuff during the creative process anyway.
Not finishing songs is a huge blow to my desire to create music. Usually, if I can finish a song, I'm pumped and want to do another. If I stall out, I'm depressed / pissed and almost always take a break. Few days, weeks, months...Depends on how many failures I've had in a row.
Going along with the stalling, and its' effect on morale...I find it's good to make appropriate time for the creation process, using that time as wisely as possible. I've noticed a trend, that...with all of my finished tracks (which tend to get me excited for more music creation) they are mostly laid out in no-more than 3-4 hours. Mainly the basic componets to the song. Intro -> Buildup -> Theme -> breakdown -> repeat -> End. I try to find complimenting sounds as quickly as possible, and let the musical instincts carry me through arranging. I also only commit to solid ideas, where I feel excited about whatever it is that's inspiring me and rapid progress is being made. I find the most important part of the creation process, at least for me, is the first few hours. After that it gets harder and harder for additional content to be added. Thinking about EQ'ing and Compression and all of that during these first few crucial hours? Ain't nobody got time for dat. |
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| AlphaStarred |
Well said.
| quote: | Originally posted by theterran
I've noticed a trend, that...with all of my finished tracks (which tend to get me excited for more music creation) they are mostly laid out in no-more than 3-4 hours. Mainly the basic componets to the song. Intro -> Buildup -> Theme -> breakdown -> repeat -> End. I try to find complimenting sounds as quickly as possible, and let the musical instincts carry me through arranging. I also only commit to solid ideas, where I feel excited about whatever it is that's inspiring me and rapid progress is being made. I find the most important part of the creation process, at least for me, is the first few hours. After that it gets harder and harder for additional content to be added. Thinking about EQ'ing and Compression and all of that during these first few crucial hours? Ain't nobody got time for dat. |
Yup. |
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| chris marsh |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
This is one of the reasons I switched to hardware. With software, there was too much thinking and the inclination to try and make a track 'perfect' which goes against the very purpose of all art. When I was working without a computer, I was able to finish tracks/live jams in a single night, sometimes - even more than one, at times.
I'm not against using the computer/software for tracks, but unlike hardware, there is so much to choose from, that I think it often hinders creativity, spontaneity and the inspiration to just get a track done. |
That's true. Ive had good results recently making all my patches on my laptop, on which all i have installed is reaper and one synth. Then i export into my pc and the endless head scratching begins.....
But at least i have all my sounds made and the music written/programmed
Its been fun and means i can utilize down time on a night shift or on the train etc |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by theterran
I know I don't try to get creative without my Yamaha KX61. And the fact it can be any synth, or set of drums that I want it to be is a bonus...
Though analog synths would really be fun.
As far as creativity, obviously it's person dependant...I love browsing through a very large variety of synth VST presets...My mood might be different on a day I'm feeling musically inclined...and sometimes it's that oddball preset that sparks an idea.
I also like starting with an init. VST synth patch, and working on it for a few hours...coming up with a unique sound that gets me excited...then trying to start a track with it.
I would imagine someone who is primarily a kinesthetic learner (I'm one of these), would prefer to have more of an analog setup. Something they can get their hands on and engage physically. And I do.
Paying attention to one's own workflow, and realizing what works best for them, should be top priority for any producer. Getting tired of doing something a certain way? Should probably ditch it and try something new. A definition of insanity : figure out what doesn't work, keep doing it.
Mainly, I believe thinking about production value destroys the musical creation process...or at least, slows it down greatly. I'm finding this entirely true for myself, and I've seen a few others mention it. Analytical thinking is basically competing with Creative thinking, and they *usually* don't get along too well together.
I churned out the First build, main theme, breakdown, 2nd buildup, 2nd theme and ending in roughly 2-3 hours on the latest tune I've been working on. I spent about maybe 10 minutes of that initially roughing out the mix, and maybe using a quick and dirty EQ / Compressor here and there on some things to make the mix tolerable.
Soon as I started thinking more heavily about the mix, and getting this EQ'd perfectly, or perfect dynamics with something else...I lost interest in the musical / creative aspect of the song, almost immediately...And I still have an intro and transition cleanup to do...If it wasn't as close to being finished as it is, I'd probably say it start something new...after a break...
From now on, I will NEVER think about the production value after I've made my instrument selection, until everything is in, arranged, and I'm bored with nothing left to do. Tired of losing potential songs to this. If the sounds are well selected, there shouldn't be as much need for that stuff during the creative process anyway.
Not finishing songs is a huge blow to my desire to create music. Usually, if I can finish a song, I'm pumped and want to do another. If I stall out, I'm depressed / pissed and almost always take a break. Few days, weeks, months...Depends on how many failures I've had in a row.
Going along with the stalling, and its' effect on morale...I find it's good to make appropriate time for the creation process, using that time as wisely as possible. I've noticed a trend, that...with all of my finished tracks (which tend to get me excited for more music creation) they are mostly laid out in no-more than 3-4 hours. Mainly the basic componets to the song. Intro -> Buildup -> Theme -> breakdown -> repeat -> End. I try to find complimenting sounds as quickly as possible, and let the musical instincts carry me through arranging. I also only commit to solid ideas, where I feel excited about whatever it is that's inspiring me and rapid progress is being made. I find the most important part of the creation process, at least for me, is the first few hours. After that it gets harder and harder for additional content to be added. Thinking about EQ'ing and Compression and all of that during these first few crucial hours? Ain't nobody got time for dat. |
This is a normal thought process.
Let's remember that dance music really was one of the first disciplines where the person that would be "writing" the track, would also be engineering, arranging and mixing the track. In nearly every other setting these are separate jobs done by seperate people. Sure sometimes, arrangement is done by the artists but there's very few commercial musicians/bands/composers out there that engineer and mix their own tracks.
The problem is that we take this for granted, and having to do both the creative and the technical (not even getting in to these are different brain side processes) is not really "normal" in any other form of music.
To go even further, I've worked for years as a score engineer and score mixer - they're two different jobs. The engineer strictly speaking is really not being creative. It's meant to be purely technical. The score mixing job, while more a technical process than the composer really has to worry about, is meant to be removed from worrying the smaller technical details. Sure, EQ and FX are vital here but it's part of a creative process, not a technical one.
This is usually why the engineer does all the setup, routing, has all the FX and chains ready to go, so that the mix engineer is just literally choosing what's available and applying it as effortlessly as possibly. Their main focus should be on the mix, and let's bear in mind 99% of the time, the arrangement is set - there's no moving around this or that like you get with dance music, they're literally mixing the content already provided to make it sound as complimentary as possible.
in the same respect, before it goes to the mixer, the engineer has setup the files, made sure everything is timed/clocked correctly and all the tools/busses/fx are available so the mix engineer can just focus on the creative and not have to engage too much of the brain that's worrying about technical problems.
Personally, I think way more dance music producers should give up trying to do everything. If you look at the guys who have consistently made great music, they always have someone, if not a team of people. Sasha has barely made any tracks start to finish without a producer and a engineer at least.
Just look at the labels on all those trance and prog classics. You'll see at least 3 or 4 names other than the artist.
My advice for people that are getting bogged down in the total process is to learn to completely compartmentalize it in to several different stages, or better still, if the technical part is killing the will to live, then farm it out to someone else. Find someone that loves just doing that pasrt so all you have to concentrate on is the fun part. |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
*DJRANN's Quite informative post* |
Quite illuminating indeed, especially from someone who is/was a professional in the industry.
And I would agree with the large majority of this.
I will say however, if you think a bit differently about it, there are more areas in music than just EDM that have a technical aspect associated with them. Though I understand what you were saying was probably more related to the production side of things.
After 10 years of private lessons from a professional Cellist in the Colorado Symphony, I can tell you that learning how to play the Cello is very similar to producing EDM. I'm sure this is the same for any instrument really. But with an instrument, musicality vs. technicality occurs in a different order. A solid technical foundation has to be laid in order to play the instrument well, and without strain or fatigue. It requires the same analytical thinking process too...and it's almost never "fun", unless you're some kind of masochist. However; that technical foundation is an essential part, allowing the player a greater range of articulation, and control over what they are trying to produce from the instrument. It's also important to make sure its' right the first time, because unlearning bad habits is a real sonofabitch. The difference between this and EDM though, is that the technical aspect is much more of a necessity when it comes to an instrument. You have to have it, there are simply some songs that will be impossible to play otherwise, so there's no getting around it. However, there may be some mixes that are unobtainable without proper production knowledge...so it may still be similar.
And, I should have looked back and realized something alot sooner. The lesson's were always broken down 50/50. The first half is always warm up with scales, arpeggios, and Etude's. Technique is being strongly adjusted or straight up corrected at this point. You need more end-pin, shift your hips slightly left and scoot more towards the end of the chair, sit up a little more straight but not too much, drop your left elbow, adjust your wrist, angle your fingers more, stop squeezing the fingerboard and use the weight of your arm to press into the strings with your fingers, stop bending your thumb so much (give me a break lady, I'm double jointed), adjust your bow arm down and relax the bow-hold and pronate slightly forward, use less curvature in the bow-hand fingers, drop your right shoulder and use your elbow more towards the latter half of the bow etc...And I would bet most of that sounds like it has nothing to do with making music...Because it shouldn't...but it does, and that was just the "basic" technical stuff, there's thumb position, accurate positional shifting of the left hand, accurate string changes on the right hand, articulation, etc... etc... etc...
The 2nd half hour however... was learning the music I wanted to play (or music she [the teacher] wanted me to play). Some minor technical corrections were made here and there, but for the most part, the technical stuff was left out. It was solely for learning and playing the music, and my teacher made this very clear. "Stop worrying about all that stuff from the beginning of the lesson and just play. Clear your head and focus only on the music, because that other stuff will come naturally with time and practice anyway. Take the notes I've written for you, go home and work on your technique then," she'd say. She knew to separate the technical from the musical. The 2nd half hour was fun, I always looked forward to this part. Especially playing duets. There's nothing quite like getting to make music with someone else.
Unfortunately the technical aspect was the main reason I didn't pursue being a professional Cellist. (And I probably could have) I just couldn't tolerate the increasing technical demands needed to continue progressing. It was irritating, time consuming, and just plain not fun. I just wanted to make music, and had other things going on in my young life...I also couldn't stand turning something I really enjoyed doing into a job, which made it seem miserable, like you know, most jobs. But I had a pretty different mentality then and didn't quite appareciate how much I really needed that technique to make the music I wanted to make. And after I went to college and stopped going for lessons, I took a break from the Cello. Didn't even look at it for quite awhile... Fast forward 7 years and I pick it up and play as often as I can...Doing scales, etude's and technical work on my own now as well, because a real understanding of "why I must do this irritating crap" is now there. My ability to create better sound/music with the cello is improving, as well as the ability to play more technical music and expand what I can play, is increasing. It's a fairly fulfilling feeling, in the end.
And I feel this correlates pretty well to EDM. Understanding, and getting good at production helps alot musically under the right circumstances. It might allow for greater flexibility when choosing sounds, that you know will work well for a final mixdown without having to guess, listen to other songs, or limit yourself to the same instrument selection just because it worked before. It can provide a better initial mixdown before you send it off to the mastering engineer, or master it yourself. I could go on...
On the other hand, it can suck ass and be a detriment, so one has to decide whether to embrace it and work through it or get someone else to do it.
As DJRANN put it, compartmentalizing and figuring out how to handle the different aspects of production on a per person basis, seems to be the key to EDM happiness and productivity. As well as knowing one's self. Drugs making things worse? Don't use drugs. Drugs making things better? Moderation is key, but hey, why not? Depression fuels the music? Live alone in a basement...or maybe, no don't do that. "No time for music" but you want to make some? Make time for it. I could go on... :D
And...I understand there's a more subsantial difference between a professional and someone in it as a hobby. And I'm not saying the professional is any better, because I've heard many "amateur" songs that I like much more...But professional = job. If a professional is being successful and doesn't have time to handle certain aspects of their production because of deadlines for releases, or it's just plain interfering with their creativity, then yeah, they're gonna do what they need to do as a professional to keep paying bills and putting dinner on the table, or adding another Ferari to their mansion's garage, or whatever. I imagine it's a reasonably short timeframe to make as many good tunes as possible to sell as quickly as possible, to keep the hype train alive before the popularity inevitably settles down or fades out, or the creative juices run dry.
But...Outsourcing work costs money unless you have friends willing to help. I'm guessing this can be a limiting factor for some in it as a hobby. However, any hobby will cost money really, so if making well produced music is that much of an integral part of the artists life, where certain aspects of the process are making it unbearably miserable, preventing them from doing what it is they want to do...Then, ya gotta do what ya gotta do to enjoy it.
That and (more on topic) I think breaks are an essential, healthy thing. Look at manga writers for example...Those dudes are always sick as towards the end of their mangas...Too much of anything is bad news. Gotta give some R&R for the creative reservoir to refill.
(I also dub this, "the longest response") |
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| Mr.Mystery |
I'm not gonna write a wall of text like that one, but they do raise an interesting point.
I've always been at my best when I'm working with someone else. Not only does it help with sharing the load, but bouncing ideas back and forth is incredibly productive.
Luckily I just met a guy by accident that I will hopefully working a lot with in the future. |
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| fuxzz |
| quote: | Originally posted by theterran
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Very well put, both of your posts. Thanks. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by LoveHate
What is the longest break you ever took from making music and was it difficult getting back into it? |
8 years (except for a quick spurt in 2012)... And I'm back now.
I've never really posted about myself here, so here's a quick intro: I first took up music production when I was a teenager, and even went as far as sending my first demo tape some 20 years ago. I was also one semester shy of getting certification in music theory at the Escola de Música de Brasília... but dropped everything to get into university. Besides, and to put it mildly, let's just say my parents weren't really supportive of my musical ambitions (as parents are wont to be :p)
As a result, I was all theory and no practice. When I finally tried to give it a go, my mastering sucked. Granted, that serves me right for trying to make music using cheap headphones (:p) and for making the very mistake DJ RANN mentioned - I thought I had to do everything.
I'm ack from grad school, and I can now focus on my "home studio". I'm getting started with Ableton Live and FL Studio as DAWs, Komplete 11 for extra goodness, and an Alesis V-49 (my midi controller). I guess I need some monitors too, but I guess they can wait a couple of months :D
And, this is me. Hi, y'all! |
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| DJ RANN |
Welcome (back) Marcus!
I forgot you made some stuff a few years back. You really weren't bad at all.
There's a couple of guys who have actually made pretty good tracks purely on headphones (I think MSZ has, as has Evolution140?) but honestly it's just a pain. You're basically having to translate everything (which shouldn't be a problem for a polyglot like you right :p ) but then it throws you off when you listen to some flat monitors.
I'm thinking it will be time to do a roundup of all the monitors for 2018 soon so I may have to make the pilgrimage to Guitar Center and annoy the out of them for a day and report back.
Anyway, welcome back in to the fray, I'm sure you'll get some curmudgeonly but useful responses from the old timers here :toothless |
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| Mr.Mystery |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
There's a couple of guys who have actually made pretty good tracks purely on headphones (I think MSZ has, as has Evolution140?) but honestly it's just a pain. You're basically having to translate everything (which shouldn't be a problem for a polyglot like you right :p ) but then it throws you off when you listen to some flat monitors.
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I still do that on occasion, because I produce on the road a lot. It really isn't too bad once you get to know your cans and how the sound translates to monitors. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Welcome (back) Marcus!
I forgot you made some stuff a few years back. You really weren't bad at all. |
Thanks, and you're too kind :)
| quote: |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
There's a couple of guys who have actually made pretty good tracks purely on headphones (I think MSZ has, as has Evolution140?) but honestly it's just a pain. You're basically having to translate everything (which shouldn't be a problem for a polyglot like you right :p ) but then it throws you off when you listen to some flat monitors. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mr.Mystery
I still do that on occasion, because I produce on the road a lot. It really isn't too bad once you get to know your cans and how the sound translates to monitors. |
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Haha, I guess I should also point out I knew next to nothing about mastering, so the headphones weren't the only culprits. I was about as clueless as someone could get... And I remain quite ignorant about it :p
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
I'm thinking it will be time to do a roundup of all the monitors for 2018 soon so I may have to make the pilgrimage to Guitar Center and annoy the out of them for a day and report back. |
Please do! :D
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Anyway, welcome back in to the fray, I'm sure you'll get some curmudgeonly but useful responses from the old timers here :toothless |
No problem, sir! I'm quite thick-skinned when it comes to feedback, so I'm looking forward to them! |
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| evo8 |
| welcome mate - i mix best in headphones, only really use my monitors to lay out ideas, then to check bass levels and midrange at high volume in case something is fatiguing |
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