Another great vid. I’m loving these. What a talented guy!
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by Paradox Lost
I was actually thinking about this during the Obsession video. My first reaction was being surprised at how Tiesto had (apparently) brought much more to the process than the old running joke about him and ghost producers would suggest (Tiesto 'shaped' his tracks?!). But then I realized he ultimately didn't say anything in technical terms so I guess it's still a bit unclear. I suppose it's just the same case with ghost producers in any other genre: it's an established and accepted industry practice but just sounds so much worse when you say it out loud.
There's been a couple of occasions when I've sat in the studio (or rather, at a desk with a laptop and speakers) with someone who makes their own electronic music, either in FL and Logic, and we've made a track together by me suggesting ideas and them making it come out of the speakers. In both cases they ended up making tunes that were totally different to what they'd come up with in the past. I think this is basically how it works in most cases. A DJ has ideas they can convey in words based on their knowledge of all the records they've played and the reactions they've seen to those records, and that can push a producer into directions they wouldn't have thought about, because they're zoomed in on EQ'ing the kick drum and so forth.
Woony
Yeah, even just sitting there and going ,I like / don‘t like that‘ or ‚make it more like that‘ can have a huge impact on a track. Goldie would famously come up with these insane scribbled cryptic graphs and charts but his producers would learn how to read them. Also, I think people like Sasha and Tijs were probably in studios enough to were they could lay down some chords or drum patterns that the producer can build off on. Musical input doesn‘t necessarily need to make it into the final track to shape a track. There are many producers that will write a bunch of later-deleted stuff just to get a track going.
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
There's been a couple of occasions when I've sat in the studio (or rather, at a desk with a laptop and speakers) with someone who makes their own electronic music, either in FL and Logic, and we've made a track together by me suggesting ideas and them making it come out of the speakers. In both cases they ended up making tunes that were totally different to what they'd come up with in the past. I think this is basically how it works in most cases. A DJ has ideas they can convey in words based on their knowledge of all the records they've played and the reactions they've seen to those records, and that can push a producer into directions they wouldn't have thought about, because they're zoomed in on EQ'ing the kick drum and so forth.
This is literally how every track Sister Bliss (of Insomina) ever got made. She literally told the engineer things like I want that "rounder" or make it "stronger". Tbh, I think it's also how Guetta makes tracks - He's just telling some ghost producer/engineer what he wants i.e. no I want a punchier kick, add more sidechain etc.
Even a few pretty well know tech house DJ's I know basically just "produce" via an Engineer.
There's nothing wrong per say with it and I've written pages about his on here in years gone by but dance music is actually one of the few disclimpines that required the person making the track to be composer, musician, assistant engineer, programmer, sound designer, synth programmer, midi programmer, arranger, mix engineer and mastering engineer in one.
There's basically no other type of music that required this until dance music came along.
There's an absolutely fascinating documentary from the 60's (?) with Glen Gould where he's playing around with an engineer whose adjusting the levels of a 4 track recording in real time to make a master recording but the 4 tracks would also be included in case someone else wanted a different balance. He predicted that musicians and listeners in the future would have controls to manipulate their music as they wanted...NOT as some producer had dictated and permanently committed to tape as "their" master.
That tells you how segregated even one of the top and most technically inclined musicians in history was from the process of producing.
He was basically mostly right, albeit that technology got to the point that just about anyone could make and record multi instrument, multitrack music in their bedrooms, so more "listeners" became "musicians".
It's bizarre to actually think one person is meant to do all those vastly separate tasks to make a track. If you actually look at early dance music vinyls, there's a lot of people credited for making tracks as the oldschool guys while pioneers, didn't know how to mixdown or engineer etc.
It became some accepted thing that we're meant to do everything yet you won't find another type of music where it's expected.
Therefore I have no reason if people want to farm things out or even "produce" in the traditional sense, where there is a guiding director in charge of technical or musical people to make a track.
What I am against, is idiots getting in to a studio, having someone ghost write the track and then said idiot thinks they made the track because they told the poor eye rolling engineer to "make it sound more purple".
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by Woony
Yeah, even just sitting there and going ,I like / don‘t like that‘ or ‚make it more like that‘ can have a huge impact on a track. Goldie would famously come up with these insane scribbled cryptic graphs and charts but his producers would learn how to read them. Also, I think people like Sasha and Tijs were probably in studios enough to were they could lay down some chords or drum patterns that the producer can build off on. Musical input doesn‘t necessarily need to make it into the final track to shape a track. There are many producers that will write a bunch of later-deleted stuff just to get a track going.
i can shed a bit of light on some of these names.
Sasha was a grade 8 piano player (basically what's needed to enter a degree course in music studies) before getting to DJ'ing and fraknly he was pretty technically minded given he was one of the first to institute harmonic Mixing a good 15 years before anyone else knew what it was.
Charlie may was really Sasha's engineer so he could concentrate on the more musical parts of the tracks, but in time basically became the producer but I think that term in their case is pretty fluid. You hear the early acid and progressive influences between the two's own productions but there's clearly a distinct difference when it's a Sasha track, which is heavily echoed when you hear him DJ.
With Tiesto, he actually produced a lot himself, as I understand with only minor external help, until a certain point (circa 1997/98) when he went in to full on sell out brand mode as was basically having what we now know as ghost producers deliver virtually finished tracks to him that he made edits to at best. That's been the vast majority of his content with a few exceptions where he's actual produced tracks with a team of people laying down what he wants. I doubt he ever sits in front a of computer or in the studio himself these days and starts and finishes a track from scratch.
To you other point of deleted material. In score, it's incredibly common that a bunch of themes, motifs and melodies are thrown in to know score, only to be massively whittled down, and those other ideas actually become the theme tunes to other movies.
one composer I worked with literally salvaged a throw away idea from one score, which then became the main theme to a massive movie and the said score is one of the most recognized in the world.
I've seen the Mau5 (joel to his mates ;) ) do this countless times in sessions. Accidentally come up with an idea that is taken later and expanded in to it's own track.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
This is literally how every track Sister Bliss (of Insomina) ever got made. She literally told the engineer things like I want that "rounder" or make it "stronger". Tbh, I think it's also how Guetta makes tracks - He's just telling some ghost producer/engineer what he wants i.e. no I want a punchier kick, add more sidechain etc.
I don't think there's any doubt that Guetta has -all technical ability. Sister Bliss is at least a keyboardist who can play multiple instruments, and as far as I know she does write most of the melodies for Faithless, even if she can't produce. In that sense she's miles ahead of most DJs in terms of direct contribution to the tunes.
In the '90s, many of the biggest electronic acts were duos or even trios: The Chemical Brothers, Orbital, Leftfield, FSOL, Underworld, BOC, Autechre and so on. Even in the prog/trance scene specifically, you had the likes of Breeder, Tilt, Spooky, Evolution and so on. I get the sense that these acts were so good because they had a split in responsibilities. In The Future Sound Of London, Gary Cobain has talked about how he's very much the writer and the musician, whereas Brian Dougans does the programming, engineering and so on. But equally, those acts were mostly dedicated production teams, rather than DJs who also made tunes.
Paradox Lost
Legacy is up, Bon Voyage is up next week, and his Fear Factory remixes are slated for the week after.
SYSTEM-J
Ahhh, Bon Voyage. Now there's a banger.
Sand Leaper
If he's doing Bon Voyage, I'd like to throw in Future In Computer Hell Pt. 2, since he's played that live a lot.
Mr.Mystery
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Probably not worth a full video, but I've always wondered why Dealing With The Roster is such a shameless clone of Smack My Bitch Up. I've always presumed that the producers of Blade wanted to license The Prodigy for the soundtrack but couldn't get the rights, so they commissioned JXL to essentially remake the track from scratch.
It is my understanding that Dealing With The Roster was originally a remix of Billy Club that got retooled to an original later. Junkie XL was the warmup act for The Prodigy during that time, so that might also have something to do with it.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Mystery
It is my understanding that Dealing With The Roster was originally a remix of Billy Club that got retooled to an original later. Junkie XL was the warmup act for The Prodigy during that time, so that might also have something to do with it.
Well that tune sounds not unfamiliar to Breathe, so maybe he was just jacking their tunes in his early days.
Midlothian
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Ahhh, Bon Voyage. Now there's a banger.
Just remembered this & think it's worth to actually post. I really hope Tom will do more of these videos. This seems to be the last one posted on his YT channel.
And the video Tom refers to around 3:00. Visual evidence to SYSTEM-J's words above. Man I would have liked to be at one of Junkie XL's gigs at the time.
