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Friday 181: Half-Cut In A Wine Bar (pg. 2)
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| Jon_Snow |
| I only drink from organic, heterosexualy blown glass. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
Organic food is unsustainable? Are you deliberately trying to be as wrong as possible? Your post is empty cynicism without even the slightest clue about the subject matter.
And obviously IGK is threatened by the idea as well. Something expensive and fancy sounding? Better pull that down as quickly as possible. |
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| Jon_Snow |
| The funny thing is I buy organic food but I can’t stand listening to people talk about buying organic food. Zak is right. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Organic food is unsustainable? Are you deliberately trying to be as wrong as possible? Your post is empty cynicism without even the slightest clue about the subject matter. |
am definitely not an expert and would like to try your hippy wine but how are we defining "sustainability"? i mean, if every farm became organic tomorrow surely we wouldn't think that was sustainable until all the poor people had starved?
(id reference my previous thread on agriculture but apparently i suck at TA. in sum, my overall view is everyone should be going GM and taking everything we've learned from organic farming to find the most efficient and sustainable agricultural practices possible.) |
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| SYSTEM-J |
I suppose there is a difference between sustaining the environment and sustaining the human population at all cost. I'm not opposed to GM, but it needs to be able to solve the problems of soil erosion and pesticide use. Simply writing off organic farming and continuing with high intensity methods is suicidal.
However, specifically in the context of this thread, natural wine isn't grown in third world countries and so doesn't affect poor people in the slightest (except for murdering my wallet on Friday), so palm's rote cynicism is a swing and a miss. Also, vineyards aren't exactly feeding the global poor, so sustainable wine production isn't some needless hippy fantasy. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I suppose there is a difference between sustaining the environment and sustaining the human population at all cost. I'm not opposed to GM, but it needs to be able to solve the problems of soil erosion and pesticide use. Simply writing off organic farming and continuing with high intensity methods is suicidal. |
GM and pesticides have a complex relationship. despite what many believe the introduction of GM crops has coincided with less pesticide use overall vs conventional farming (the USDA record 1982 as the 'peak' year for "pounds on the ground"). however, the use of certain pesticides are certainly on the increase since ~1994 (when GM crops came to market) because they've been using roundup too long and pests are evolving.
it's also a complex relationship because 1 tonne of igk sperm is likely more dangerous to the community than 1 tonne of nou's. so it's somewhat difficult to get a real reading on the relative impacts of different substances.
however, there are certainly advances in biotechnology crops which release their own pesticide and leave the wider environment relatively unaffected. the problem is that there is so much paranoia re biotech that products which can really reduce negative impacts to the environment are demonised by those who should support them. you should see our green party's policies for example- "GM crops have not been shown to be safe to consume"- after more than 2000 research studies, 2 decades and trillions of tonnes consumed. GM food safety has more of a "consensus" than AGW lol.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
However, specifically in the context of this thread, natural wine isn't grown in third world countries and so doesn't affect poor people in the slightest (except for murdering my wallet on Friday), so palm's rote cynicism is a swing and a miss. Also, vineyards aren't exactly feeding the global poor, so sustainable wine production isn't some needless hippy fantasy. |
ha yeah, i have few issues with a business serving the peeps whatever the peeps are into. they can even advertise that their wines contain less pesticides and also taste better- just as long as they don't assert that their product is any better for you than the regular stuff. alcohol is likely to be more carcinogenic than, say, glyphosate ;) |
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| SYSTEM-J |
Organic/natural wine making methods have nothing to do with health, and aren't marketed as such. It's worth noting that organic and natural are slightly different things in this context.
The issue with pesticides is primarily about biodiversity and insect populations. Sounds like a trivial issue, but current studies are suggesting we've wiped out 90% of flying insect life in surveyed areas, which is going to have catastrophic effects on the environment if allowed to continue. |
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| Silky Johnson |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
it's also a complex relationship because 1 tonne of igk sperm is likely more dangerous to the community than 1 tonne of nou's. so it's somewhat difficult to get a real reading on the relative impacts of different substances.
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:stongue: :stongue: |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Organic/natural wine making methods have nothing to do with health, and aren't marketed as such. It's worth noting that organic and natural are slightly different things in this context. |
i can't comment on your wines in particular but i know the apparent first organic winery in my state made sure to mention 'no pesticides' in their marketing. i don't think most consumers are interested enough to think of pesticides in any other context than the immediate effect on their own health (but maybe im too dismissive there).
i disagree re the differentiation between natural and organic though; that is precisely the marketing principle of these products generally due to people conflating "organic" with "natural" and natural with "better". pesticide use would be the #1 reason people buy organic as they think its associated with less poison (sometimes true) or believe organic poisons are less dangerous (rarely true in purely toxicity terms).
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The issue with pesticides is primarily about biodiversity and insect populations. Sounds like a trivial issue, but current studies are suggesting we've wiped out 90% of flying insect life in surveyed areas, which is going to have catastrophic effects on the environment if allowed to continue. |
there's a lot of concern about neonicotinoids and bees in particular but im unaware that organic pesticides are any better re biodiversity generally. i think it's more usage and rotation than the use of particular chemicals themselves. but like i said, it's really hard to identify objective facts between large business groups with competing methodologies.
| quote: | Originally posted by Silky Johnson
:stongue: :stongue: |
it just worked! :stongue: |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i disagree re the differentiation between natural and organic though; that is precisely the marketing principle of these products generally due to people conflating "organic" with "natural" and natural with "better". pesticide use would be the #1 reason people buy organic as they think its associated with less poison (sometimes true) or believe organic poisons are less dangerous (rarely true in purely toxicity terms). |
What I mean is that in the winemaking industry, there is a clear distinction between “organic” and “natural” wine. “Organic” is a classification set by a regulating body, and winemakers must comply with national regulations to label their product in this way. “Natural wine” is not a regulated category and is, in some ways, a bit of a buzz word without rigorously applied criteria. In practise, the difference is that organic wine still has chemical or otherwise artificial intervention in the fermentation process, whereas natural wine does not.
And I should correct my previous post a bit – there is a bit of a health aspect to natural wine, but it’s not to do with people being scared of pesticide poisoning. Natural wines are very low in sulphites, or free entirely, which is supposed to help reduce your hangover.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
there's a lot of concern about neonicotinoids and bees in particular but im unaware that organic pesticides are any better re biodiversity generally. i think it's more usage and rotation than the use of particular chemicals themselves. but like i said, it's really hard to identify objective facts between large business groups with competing methodologies. |
In the context of natural wine, the idea is not to use pesticides at all. I know there are varying regulations worldwide on organic farming. The EU’s website on its own Eco-regulation simply states that “Chemical pesticides, synthetic fertilisers, antibiotics and other substances are severely restricted”, and my assumption was that organic farming involves cutting down on use of pesticides rather than simply changing the particular chemical being used to what you call “organic pesticides”. I’m open to being corrected on this assumption, though.
Personally, I don’t think that organic food is any safer, healthier or better tasting. For me the benefit is primarily an environmental one. |
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| Trance-M |
Talking about wine. Since my dad retired he remains fit by working in a vineyard of an also retired friend in the hill behind his house. It's just a small one good enough for 1500 bottles and there are two more at the same hill. They just finished cutting the grapes last week. It was an exceptional good year for wine as the sugar levels were of the chart. Normally in the mid 80's (degrees Oechsle, resulting in about 13% alcohol) but now way over 100 (over 16%).
My son and his friend helped cutting grapes.
They don't use any pesticides, they only have to spray against downy mildew. My dad thinks it's almost impossible without, using soap is an alternative, but you have to repeat it very often.
It's pretty intensive work as a vineyard needs a lot of attention during the year. Cutting grass, pruning branches, getting rid of leaves as the grapes need the sunlight.
In the past Napoleon and grape phylloxera (a louse) destroyed all vineyards in our area, but since the early 70's people started building vineyards again.
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| Jon_Snow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trance-M
Talking about wine. Since my dad retired he remains fit by working in a vineyard of an also retired friend in the hill behind his house. It's just a small one good enough for 1500 bottles and there are two more at the same hill. They just finished cutting the grapes last week. It was an exceptional good year for wine as the sugar levels were of the chart. Normally in the mid 80's (degrees Oechsle, resulting in about 13% alcohol) but now way over 100 (over 16%).
My son and his friend helped cutting grapes.
They don't use any pesticides, they only have to spray against downy mildew. My dad thinks it's almost impossible without, using soap is an alternative, but you have to repeat it very often.
It's pretty intensive work as a vineyard needs a lot of attention during the year. Cutting grass, pruning branches, getting rid of leaves as the grapes need the sunlight.
In the past Napoleon and grape phylloxera (a louse) destroyed all vineyards in our area, but since the early 70's people started building vineyards again.
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I have a wine grape arbor in my backyard and can attest to the work involved. I find it suspect how fungicides are still considered “organic”. I understand it seems impossible to raise grapes without mildew and fungus destroying them. I’ve had no luck stopping black rot with fungicide so I’ve given up. |
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