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Yet Another Suicide Bombing (pg. 11)
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
but dont you find it funny that they ALWAYS end up dying by getting killed in a fire fight?
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you know its not 'always'. problem is you never hear about the ones that are succesfully arrested, you only hear about the ones that ended up dying, whether they were targeted or they resisted arrest and fought till their death. |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
you know its not 'always'. problem is you never hear about the ones that are succesfully arrested, you only hear about the ones that ended up dying, whether they were targeted or they resisted arrest and fought till their death. |
case in point:
| quote: |
MILITANTS CORNERED, KILLED
In the West Bank city of Nablus, witnesses said three Palestinian militants being sought by Israel were sheltering in a small rooftop room of Rafidya hospital when Israeli forces stormed up and surrounded the building.
They said a shoot-out ensued with soldiers firing into the room, killing two militants and wounding the third. All three were members of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an armed faction within the mainstream Fatah (news - web sites) national movement of Palestinian President Yasser Arafat (news - web sites).
Israeli security sources said the troops targeted militants who had been hiding in the hospital for some time and were wanted for involvement in a suicide bombing in Israel on August 12 and some ambush shootings in the West Bank.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...=/nm/mideast_dc |
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| Cyrus King |
You are forgetting to mention something here IZZY.. the KEY words in that paragragh is "THEY SAID", or in other words, the Israeli security forces said....
"they" were the only ones that came out alive from this ambush.."they" are the only ones that can say what they "saw"
On the other hand, the report does not ask another person what happened from their view, if they had survuved the ambush. |
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| tathi |
English 101
Example Number 1:
Terrorism: The (1.)systematic use of (2.)violence as a means to (3.)intimidate or (4.)coerce societies or governments
(1.)Systematic: Characterized by order and planning
Is there any plan to the IDFs trips into Palestine, or is it just a fun melee?
(2.)Violence, Fairly self explanatory?
Violence:A turbulent state resulting in injuries and destruction
There is not a lot of room to argue on this one
As*sas`si*na"tion\, n. The act of assassinating; a killing by treacherous violence.
(3.)Intimidation: The act of intimidating a weaker person to make them do something.
(4.)Coerce: To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.
Societies:An extended social group having a distinctive cultural and economic organization
Example Number 2:
Terrorism: The (1)unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an (2)organized group against (3)people or property with the intention of (4)intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
(1.)Unlawful: Not morally right or permissible
Unlawful: Not conforming to legality, moral law, or social convention
Are there laws in Israel to prevent the theft of land, to preclude the occupation of foriegn military forces, to uphold human rights?
And what of Palestines laws?
Is Israel justly acting in accoradance of International Law, and the Geneva Convention?
Extrajudicial: Beyond the usual course of legal proceedings; legally unwarranted
Assassination equates well with extrajudicial, justice outside of the law
(2.)Organized: Arrange by systematic planning and united effort
Compare this with example 1: the (1)systematic use of (2)violence
Government:The organization that is the governing authority of a political unit
Army: An organization of military land forces
(3.)People:(plural) any group of human beings (men or women or children) collectively
Civilians would be classified under People
Property: Any tangible possession that is owned by someone
(4.)intimidating or coercing societies or governments
Remember the words Intimidating, Coercing, Societies and Government?
Third time lucky
\Ter"ror*ism\ n. The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation
Apply your new found English skills to this denotation, it's quite concise
To recap what we have learnt today:
Unlawful
The Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) is a cornerstone of international humanitarian law that ensures minimum protections for civilians in armed conflict and occupation. It forbids, among other things: the construction of settlements on occupied land (Article 49), unilateral annexation (Article 47), willful killing of civilians (Articles 146-147), collective punishment (33), torture (Articles 31-32, 146-147), and the destruction of property without a compelling military reason (Articles 53, 146-147). It also requires judicial accountability for those who commit war crimes (defined as “grave breaches” listed in Article 147 of the Convention). The Convention fully takes into account military necessity and cannot be violated for “security” reasons.
Israel is one of 189 states that have signed the Convention (“High Contracting Parties”) and is legally bound to it.
Violence:
The burned remains of a Palestinian boy lay amidst toys in a house
destroyed by Israeli soldiers in the Jenin refugee camp
Saturday, April 13, 2002. (AP Photo/Jerome Delay)
Intimidation:
A Palestinian boy intimidating an IDF Tank
Property:
A view from the top of the Hawashin district of the Jenin refugee camp. Armored Israeli bulldozers flattened the entire Hawashin district, completely demolishing more than 100 multi-story homes in this area of the camp. The destruction in Jenin refugee camp left some 4,000 persons homeless, more than a quarter of the population of the camp. (c) 2002 Peter Bouckaert/Human Rights Watch
People:
Immorality:
A neighbor holds the white flag that was attached to the wheelchair of fifty-seven-year-old Kamal Zghair. On April 10, Kamal Zghair was attempting to reach the gas station where he slept when he was shot and killed by an Israeli tank. His body and wheelchair were then run over by the tank. (c) 2002 Peter Bouckaert/Human Rights Watch
I personally thought “State Sponsored” terrorism is easy to apprehend
EDIT: Either some people on this forum are incapable of deductive reasoning, are illiterate, or refute to acknowledge anything they don't agree with
dogmatic hypothetical analogies are sure to follow
edit: stupid typo |
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| drgoodvibe |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
English 101
Example Number 1:
Terrorism: The (1.)systematic use of (2.)violence as a means to (3.)intimidate or (4.)coerce societies or governments
(1.)Systematic: Characterized by order and planning
Is there any plan to the IDFs trips into Palestine, or is it just a fun melee?
(2.)Violence, Fairly self explanatory?
Violence:A turbulent state resulting in injuries and destruction
There is not a lot of room to argue on this one
As*sas`si*na"tion\, n. The act of assassinating; a killing by treacherous violence.
(3.)Intimidation: The act of intimidating a weaker person to make them do something.
(4.)Coerce: To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.
Societies:An extended social group having a distinctive cultural and economic organization
Example Number 2:
Terrorism: The (1)unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an (2)organized group against (3)people or property with the intention of (4)intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
(1.)Unlawful: Not morally right or permissible
Unlawful: Not conforming to legality, moral law, or social convention
Are there laws in Israel to prevent the theft of land, to preclude the occupation of foriegn military forces, to uphold human rights?
And what of Palestines laws?
Is Israel justly acting in accoradance of International Law, and the Geneva Convention?
Extrajudicial: Beyond the usual course of legal proceedings; legally unwarranted
Assassination equates well with extrajudicial, justice outside of the law
(2.)Organized: Arrange by systematic planning and united effort
Compare this with example 1: the (1)systematic use of (2)violence
Government:The organization that is the governing authority of a political unit
Army: An organization of military land forces
(3.)People:(plural) any group of human beings (men or women or children) collectively
Civilians would be classified under People
Property: Any tangible possession that is owned by someone
(4.)intimidating or coercing societies or governments
Remember the words Intimidating, Coercing, Societies and Government?
Third time lucky
\Ter"ror*ism\ n. The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation
Apply your new found English skills to this denotation, it's quite concise
To recap what we have learnt today:
Unlawful
The Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) is a cornerstone of international humanitarian law that ensures minimum protections for civilians in armed conflict and occupation. It forbids, among other things: the construction of settlements on occupied land (Article 49), unilateral annexation (Article 47), willful killing of civilians (Articles 146-147), collective punishment (33), torture (Articles 31-32, 146-147), and the destruction of property without a compelling military reason (Articles 53, 146-147). It also requires judicial accountability for those who commit war crimes (defined as “grave breaches” listed in Article 147 of the Convention). The Convention fully takes into account military necessity and cannot be violated for “security” reasons.
Israel is one of 189 states that have signed the Convention (“High Contracting Parties”) and is legally bound to it.
Violence:
The burned remains of a Palestinian boy lay amidst toys in a house
destroyed by Israeli soldiers in the Jenin refugee camp
Saturday, April 13, 2002. (AP Photo/Jerome Delay)
Intimidation:
A Palestinian boy intimidating an IDF Tank
Property:
A view from the top of the Hawashin district of the Jenin refugee camp. Armored Israeli bulldozers flattened the entire Hawashin district, completely demolishing more than 100 multi-story homes in this area of the camp. The destruction in Jenin refugee camp left some 4,000 persons homeless, more than a quarter of the population of the camp. (c) 2002 Peter Bouckaert/Human Rights Watch
People:
Immorality:
A neighbor holds the white flag that was attached to the wheelchair of fifty-seven-year-old Kamal Zghair. On April 10, Kamal Zghair was attempting to reach the gas station where he slept when he was shot and killed by an Israeli tank. His body and wheelchair were then run over by the tank. (c) 2002 Peter Bouckaert/Human Rights Watch
I personally thought “State Sponsored” terrorism is easy to apprehend
Either the some people on this forum are incapable of deductive reasoning, are illiterate, or refute to acknowledge anything they don't agree with
dogmatic hypothetical analogies are sure to follow |
*Claps* very nice .. its great to show the other side of things.. TV is littered with palestinian terrorism.. (which is HORRID and needs to stop) but no one ever see's the israeli state sponsored terrorism |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
People:
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:) |
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| Cyrus King |
| Beautiful post Tathi, Ive tried explaining on numerous occasions that State sponsored terrorism is just as and even worse than terrorism. But many here are in extreme denial about their motherland. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
1. Terrorism: The (1.)systematic use of (2.)violence as a means to (3.)intimidate or (4.)coerce societies or governments
2. Terrorism: The (1)unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an (2)organized group against (3)people or property with the intention of (4)intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
3. \Ter"ror*ism\ n. The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation
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Tathi, You've defined terrorism three times in your english lesson.
The third definitions is proper for a type of government, like the form that existed in Iraq or during the French revolution, where the origin of the word terror comes from. I don't believe we are going to use this deinfition. As it may only apply to the Israeli government terrorizing its own citizens, or the Palestinian Authority its own... this is not what we are trying to argue.
In your english lesson you have failed to connect the definitions of terror to the point you were supposed to try and make; namely that the State of Israel is using or supporting terrorism.
1. Israel is not systematically coercing Palestinian government or society. You have yet to prove it is systematically conducting violence against the Paelstinians to coerce them.
2. You have not proved that Israel is "with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments" when it uses violence.
You have defined terrorism. This is step one, very good... we did that two days ago. Now you must prove either one of these two points; that Israel is either A. systematically using violence to coerce Palestinians. or Has the [b]intention to intimidate or coercing the Palestinians. |
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| tathi |
Heh, how predictable, another speculative conjecture based on opinion rather than anything factual. I'm getting bored of this barrage of weak hypothecate, you ignore the majority of my points and antagonise a few of my weaker points that are only there to strengthen the rest, why should i even bother? Your argument is so weak im begining to think that you yourself doubt your own ideals, and you are just "going through the motions"
| quote: | | The third definitions is proper for a type of government, like the form that existed in Iraq or during the French revolution, where the origin of the word terror comes from. |
Etymology of the word terror:
| quote: | | terror - c.1375 "great fear," from O.Fr. terreur, from L. terror "great fear, dread," from terrere "fill with fear, frighten," from PIE base *tre- "shake." Terrorism is first attested 1795, "government intimidation during the Reign of Terror" (1793-July 1794) after the Fr. Revolution, from Fr. terrorisme. General sense of "systematic use of terror as a policy" is first recorded in Eng. 1798. Terrorize "coerce or deter by terror" first recorded 1823. Terrorist in the modern sense dates to 1947, especially in reference to Jewish tactics against the British in Palestine -- earlier used of extremist revolutionaries in Russia (1866); and Jacobins during the French Revolution (1795) -- from Fr. Terroriste. |
The epitome of poetic justice
As i stated earlier in this thread, the bombing of the King David Hotel revolutionized contemporary terrorism, and generated numerous copycat terrorist acts around the world. One is left to wonder what terrorism would be like today without this epoch.
Yoepus what is your connotation of Irony?
| quote: | | I don't believe we are going to use this deinfition. As it may only apply to the Israeli government terrorizing its own citizens, or the Palestinian Authority its own... this is not what we are trying to argue. |
Although we could argue this point, ever heard of someone named Dr. Mordechai Vanunu? Nominated for the nobel peace prize for blowing the whistle on Israel's undeclared weapons of mass detruction, this Israeli patriot spent the first 11 1/2 years of his 18-year sentence in solitary confinement, his treatment was condemned by Amnesty International as "cruel, inhuman, and degrading."
Everyone reading this should sign the "International Pertition to Free Mordechai Vanunu"
http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns...anunu/sigs.html
SAY NO to the abuse of human rights
| quote: | | You have yet to prove it is systematically conducting violence against the Paelstinians to coerce them. |
Sytematic: Characterized by order and planning
Violence: An act of aggression
Coerce: To cause to do through pressure
There is a "special" kid in every class
| quote: | | 2. You have not proved that Israel is "with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments" when it uses violence. |
Yes i have, and you refuse to acknowledge it
| quote: | | You have defined terrorism. This is step one, very good... we did that two days ago. |
Yes i did define both conventional and state sponsored terrorism two days ago, but you didn't completely comprehend the explanation, so you asked me to put it in words you could understand, so i explained it quite clearly, so even a child could understand it, and you refused to acknowledge even then..
| quote: | | Now you must prove either one of these two points; that Israel is either A. systematically using violence to coerce Palestinians. or Has the [b]intention to intimidate or coercing the Palestinians. |
I have already proved it, and you have ignored it, nothing is going to change your mind, you are just another pathetic indoctrinated fool, your misanthropic attitude towards human rights is deplorable. |
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| Cyrus King |
Yoepus, you have just been owned....
tathi, re-explaining yourself is what you will do here becuase many will fail to see the objectivity in your points. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
Heh, how predictable, another speculative conjecture based on opinion rather than anything factual. |
From what I know all you have done is speculative conjecture. You have to make a point here not me! You made a claim that Israel is state sponsoring terrorism, and although you have defined the words you have not brought the facts that prove this.
| quote: | | Etymology of the word terror: |
As you see in your own Etymology of the word terror, its main historical link of use is back to the French revolution.
| quote: | | As i stated earlier in this thread, the bombing of the King David Hotel revolutionized contemporary terrorism, and generated numerous copycat terrorist acts around the world. One is left to wonder what terrorism would be like today without this epoch. |
I believe it would be much the same. However this has ntohing to do with your point, proving how modern day Israel is conducting state sponsored terrorism? You are drifting off course.
| quote: | | Although we could argue this point, ever heard of someone named Dr. Mordechai Vanunu? Nominated for the nobel peace prize for blowing the whistle on Israel's undeclared weapons of mass detruction, this Israeli patriot spent the first 11 1/2 years of his 18-year sentence in solitary confinement, his treatment was condemned by Amnesty International as "cruel, inhuman, and degrading." |
And this proves that the Israeli government are terrorists how?
| quote: |
Sytematic: Characterized by order and planning
Violence: An act of aggression
Coerce: To cause to do through pressure
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Great now lets put all those words in a sentance so we can get to the meaning of terrorism ok?
The (1.)systematic use of (2.)violence as a means to (3.)intimidate or (4.)coerce societies or governments
terror: The characterized use of order and planning of an act of aggression to intimidate a weaker person to try and make them do something or cause them to do through pressure on socities or government.
The above is your definition, in your other words.
You see we can't say they are doing A) Using order and planning and therefore they meet 1 of 3, and now they use agression so they do two of three.. and therefore come to conclusion. And they use pressure to get things done, and so magic they are terrorist.
No you must but the words in the context of their definition:
Israel has to be using violence systematically to intimidate or coerce the Palestinians to meet your definition.
So now like I said in my former post which you obviously did think a minute about, you have to prove that Israel when using its violence in systematic fashion is primarly coercing or intimidating the Palestinians.
Please take into the meaning of the words coerce and intimidations as you defined them.
The act of intimidating a weaker person to make them do something
| quote: | me: 2. You have not proved that Israel is "with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments" when it uses violence.
you: Yes i have, and you refuse to acknowledge it |
Ok then if you have proved it link to it, or bring it up again. This is the missing point of your argument. I still have found none. If you mean that Israel is acting illegal then you must be joking, illegal action does not make it terrorism. Furthermore I can bring into question all those assertions as well if you really want... I haven't done so now, because they prove nothing.
What you are looking for is a link to Israeli violence that says they are using violence only for revenge or to make Palestinian life miserable, but not for other means which one might use violence for, such as say, secuirty.
| quote: | | it quite clearly, so even a child could understand it, and you refused to acknowledge even then.. |
I'm sure you are correct, any child would understand it as a child has no logic or developed rational to comprehend your words and put them into the context they belong, leaving your argument open and pointless.
| quote: | | I have already proved it, and you have ignored it, nothing is going to change your mind, you are just another pathetic indoctrinated fool, your misanthropic attitude towards human rights is deplorable. |
Where'd human rights come into question? Always vering off topic are we? In your definition it does not say that if one does not believe in human rights he is a terrorist, or if one does not respect human rights he is a terrorist.
Look what you are going for here again is to link Israeli violence to the word terrorism. I agree with you, you have explained the definition of terrorism 3 days ago, and again yesterday. Ok I agree... lets accept this definition then shall we? Now link this definition to Israeli action to prove they are terrorist.
Simply saying they violate human rights will not get you there.
Have you ever read the UN decleration of human rights? I am sure almost every single country in this world is violating peoples human rights according to that decleration. That decleraiton requires each human to have healthcare, many vacationing days, resonable work hours, safe and stress free environments, garunteed overtime pay, a lot of things that simply do not, and perhaps never will exist in the majority of the counties in this earth.
The Geneva Convention is a war convention, and furthermore if you read it clearly it is written as a contract between two parties. These two parties are understood to be the two warring parties, and if one party does not abide by the contract, the responsibility of abiding by the contract for the other party therefore disappears as well.
This makes sense, say my enemy is using their protected ambulances to ferry troops and ammunition to the frontlines so my army does not attack them. Since they have violated the contract and the protection of such units, I have no moral or legal responsibility to abide by this contract, and may now target ambulances as any other enemy military vehicle. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| Well, if we accept the definition of terrorism as being the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments, then Israel truly is conducting terrorism upon palestinians. But that definition is pretty vague. For example, if you look at two countries that are in a war, they're both trying to systematically use violence in order to subdue the other side, yet that could hardly be classified as terrorism. Maybe a better definition would be one that would include a note concerning intentional targeting of innocent civilians. In that case, Israel is no longer a terrorist state, while palestinian terrorist organizations still remain terrorist organizations. It is true, though, that israelis have often murdered innocent civilians as well, but those incidents were not intended by the governing bodies. They were either result of wrong judgement or inobedient military personell. Besides, as far as intimidating or coercing other side goes, in this specific situation the goals are quite different on each side. On one hand, Israel is trying to coerce palestinians to stop suicide bombings. On the other hand, palestinian organizations are dreaming of destroying Israel. One goal is realistic and could be considered as a positive one, while the other one is totally crazy. |
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