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Football riots (pg. 2)
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| evil_bastard |
In response to the original post, here is a decent 'investigation' into football hooliganism and the different cultures across Europe:
http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvintro.html#_VPID_11
I'd like to point out that despite it being called "the English disease" it is very serious in many other parts of the world.
The culture varies, English hools are basically prepared to go anywhere, and in the last year have been shot and stabbed in places like Slovakia and Switzerland. Italian hooligans are notorious for their right-wing sympathies, and have been accused by English hooligans of not leaving "their own playground" ie they don't travel to England and get themselves into scrapes. In Italy fascism is still alive and famous players have publicly supported the racism in the terraces. The most notorious team in Italy is Lazio and they have been known to display banners freely from their stadium saying things like "Auschwitz was only the start". The hooligans get to meet players and get special entry into the games and meetings! Their main hooligan group even has a chain of merchandise. In England this is generally not the case, stadiums are ruled with an iron fist and the slightest trouble is immediately dealth with. Many stadiums won't even let you smoke. The problem in England has therefore moved out of the stadiums and onto the surrounding streets.
In Argentina the Boca Juniors fans are notorious for their gun culture. In Turkey fans have been known to commit suicide in the stadium after the game when their team loses, and many of them carry guns into the stadium and fire them off. Flares are also common in many parts of Europe, but banned in Britain.
Many English hools seem to criticise this use of weapons as "cowardly". There's been a big rivalry between Turkey and England after 2 Leeds Utd fans were stabbed to death in Istanbul in 2000. You might have heard about the riots in England last week when Turkey visitted.
English fans are well known for their large consumption of alcohol, but this is not the case with some countries. Some Italian hooligans avoid alcohol completely and the alcohol culture is apparently less prevalent among their hooligans. The same can be said of other countries. However, as the link I gave explains, alcohol and hooliganism are not necessarily related, as Scottish and Danish fans are well known for their friendliness but they also like to drink a lot before the games.
So it's not really fair at all to call it the English disease when many countries have a totally different hooligan culture to England. Indeed any analysis of hooliganism always traces back to England, it did start here, but it has taken it's own course in many other countries.
It is hard to draw any solid conclusions because, as the link says, different countries give different definitions of "serious incidents", many countries don't give a definition at all. A "serious incident" in one country might be a small punch-up in the street, whilst a "serious incident" in another country might involve riots and murder. It's hard to draw any comparisons I'm afraid. |
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| Dj O'Callaghan |
ing brilliant thread.
Football hooliganism, too me its part of the game sometimes, I haven't been involved in any fights at football matches, however even though I live 100s of miles from Glasgow, I will come face to face with Rangers fans which of course me being a Celtic fan, means we're likely not to get along, by all means I've got mates who are Rangers fans but if there is an Old firm game we avoid each other for a few weeks. But where I live I've gone out for lunch from work in my Celtic shirt and one occasion I remember some fat bastard in a Rangers shirt tried to have a go at me he was in his 40s and had two little kids with him, it was verbals went to threats which I finished with saying 'If your kids weren't here pal I'd ing kick ing 10 shades of out you'.
My Fathers been arrested once at a football match when things got rowdy on the terraces between rival fans his older (my uncle) has been on quite a few occasions, and my other uncle my ma's little brother even though he follows a small team he is know as a bit of a football yob around town and used to have quite a reputation, but this is like the 70s and 80s when hooliganism was a big thing.
The reason why it happens to me, is the alcohol everyone gets gobby at football matches when they've had a few drinks, a lot of other people get violent especially if its a local derby or a team your club dislikes for some reason, every club has its ultra nutcase hooligans who will go to a match to fight, but there is always tag alongs who will go there for the games however when in the stands if they get wound up by the rival fans or their team loses they leave the ground angry and join in if theres skirmishes after the game. And if it is a local rivalry a lot of people who are usually well behaved at football matches will be up for a fight because its that passionate.
The riots at the Celtic Rangers games (old firm) are as violent as ing hell, a few people have been stabbed to death its a that fierce rivalry, however there is politcal issues surrounding the old firm which spurs the violence between hooligans to another level. I remember in Glasgow after an old firm match there was about 10 - 25 stabbings it gets that serious, and not only is it in Glasgow it spreads to Northern Ireland which a lot of the politcal issues are from, Celtic lost one match, so after a match two Rangers fans got shot dead can't remember where it happened in NI.
English hooliganism theres tons of clubs every club in the Uk has a firm of hooligans some more notourious then the others. Chelsea Headhunters, Millwall, Stoke, Cardiff Soulcrew, Birmingham Zulu's, West Ham Inter city firm, & Leeds have the biggest reputations. And their violence spreads it happens on the stands sometimes in small pockets usually the police deal with them however 100s of people throwing stuff at each other and charging cause big fights on the stand even though it happens occasionaly now, most of the fights are big fights outside the grounds but some of meetups between hooligans are actually organised via mobile phones and websites.
As Halifax Gooner sent the link of Macintyre that episode was ing brilliant when he infilltrated the Chelsea Headhunters, and he got so much stuff on them, like one of the head headhunters a guy called Andy Frain boasting about slashing an off duty police officers throat in a take away place, some really crazy stuff got caught on tape.
A lot of people may disagree with me, but at a lot of English primership clubs you go and see a match and because someone like Man Utd is playing away, you will see some stupid sitting in a season ticket seat reading a newspaper whilst the games on whilst his kids sit and watch the match, not because they support the home team but their kids support Man United etc and the parents hate football they just go to read the ing newspaper. And I ing hate that, Bring back the terraces bring back alcohol into the stands Footballs a working class game for sake! not for some stupid rich leafy suburb living bastards, I like the yobbish element involved with football, yes things can get dodgy but it makes the exprience more entertaining. |
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| KLINGKLANG77 |
why is it- man u is the most hated? i support them and i see when they lose, bigger threads, then when like say, liverpool loses?
why is that that people always love it when man u loses or draws?
just explain it to me they are so hated?? :conf: |
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| Xavier |
| quote: | Originally posted by KLINGKLANG77
why is it- man u is the most hated? i support them and i see when they lose, bigger threads, then when like say, liverpool loses?
why is that that people always love it when man u loses or draws?
just explain it to me they are so hated?? :conf: |
Man Utd are the most hated for billions of reasons...
I've heard that...
- Everyone outside England has some sort of allegiance to them.
It is rare that you will find a man utd fan in Manchester, but they
mostly can be found in countries like USA, Canada, China, Australia
and Antartica. Old Trafford is full of Japenese with cameras
- For a man utd fan football either started in 1993 or 1999.
Not knowing anything about football before 1993.
- They are still the SECOND most successful English club in history
yes thats right SECOND!!!!!!!! not FIRST!
- When Man Utd are losing at home, the ref will grant more stoppage time
than needed.
- Roy Keane in his autobiography said he hates man utd fans :)
Labelling them Prawn Sandwich eaters.
- Ruud Van A Horse is a cheat...hence his diving.
- Gary Neville asked referee Mike Riley last Saturday for
Sami Hyppia to be sent off.
- Roy Keane is a thug. He only gets a small suspension for that
murderous challenge he intended on Halland.
- They took the words 'Football Club' off their badge :conf: hmm...
here are some FACTS
- Alex son was one match from the sack in 1990. Manure fans had
signs that said 'fergie out'
- Alex son took over in 1986 and didnt win the league till 1993.
- From 1968 to 1993, they won no league championship
- They got relegated in 1974. The day they got relegated, they were
playing man city at Old Trafford their 'king' Denis Law scored
the goal that put them into the second division.
You can see Denis Law score the goal here:
http://www.antirags.co.uk/law.htm
Oh and dont accuse me of jealousy.
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I think there has to be a new kind of terracing that is safe.
I miss seeing the old standing Spion Kop at Anfield. Atmosphere like
that has to return. |
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| chesco |
Celtic/Rangers are nothing when it comes to the rome derby.
I am a celtic supporter myself and a lot of the banter that goes on is just banter and that's it, however I agree you do always get some fanny that wants to take it one step too far. The last few old firm encounters have been fairly mild manared.
If you want football hooliganism of the highest order visit the lazio ultras. They have a whole stand to themselves in the olympic stadium, and they are evil s. They take there rioting very seriously. Months before the games they are creating 40ft banners to incite racial hatred and provoke the other fans. I watched a program about it, and it showed you a roma fans car driving thru' the part of town where they meet before games. They didn't even bother to pull the guy and girl out, they just smashed the window and set the car a blaze. These are full blown riots in the town, they are organised. your not talking about a "firm" of 20 to 30 here, your talking a whole stadium full of nazi lovers hungry for blood. 1000's of people rioting every time this game comes along.
Now who was it didn't want to class these football hooligans as scum.
By the way, a while back now, there was a young celtic lad of 15 years. He was minding his own business coming home from the game. Walks past a rangers pub and gets stabbed to death cos he had a celtic scarf on after the game. This kid went to a private school, he was a smart kid and never in any trouble. And thats what he gets for supporting a differnt team.
It's actually really quite sad. |
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| evil_bastard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan
And I ing hate that, Bring back the terraces bring back alcohol into the stands Footballs a working class game for sake! not for some stupid rich leafy suburb living bastards, I like the yobbish element involved with football, yes things can get dodgy but it makes the exprience more entertaining. |
I agree with you about the terraces, I HATE sitting down it feels awkward.
However, I'm not sure about the yobbish thing. I don't think I'd find getting beaten to death in Sunderland "entertaining". Hear in the north-east the battle lines are clearly drawn. You wander into enemy territory you are in trouble, it's as simple as that. It's a bit different to places like Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow etc. When the clubs meet it can get extremely violent, as you say there are a lot of tag-alongs and people will take to the streets to cause trouble. It's basically not wise at all to be in Sunderland on matchday unless you are with a large amount of people because you won't be coming home otherwise. I love the rivalry and the passion but when people start getting murdered it's gone too far imo. |
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| arctic |
| What's wrong with a nice little gang war in one's leisure time? |
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| Xavier |
| quote: | Originally posted by arctic
What's wrong with a nice little gang war in one's leisure time? |
being a football supporter is far more serious to just being a leisure time activity |
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| evil_bastard |
I agree, football is like a religion, a passion, something millions of people around the world live for.
It seems that some people just don't understand and think football is just a weekend hobby. It wouldn't be embraced all over the world if it was like that. Being a football supporter is a way of life. |
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| Dj O'Callaghan |
At work If I wear my Celtic shirt and attempt to take civilised stuff about football, Someone all turns round to me and says shut up you savage where is your stanley knife.
I don't really know loads about Italian derbys myself I used to work with a guy who had Italian parents and he was telling me sometime that I think it was Roma fans smuggled in some sort of projectile weapon sort of like a bazooka or some like that, they smuggled it in pieces and assembled it firing it into where the Lazio fans were killing a Lazio fan, dunno if its true though, but he also told me about there was film I think about some Juve fans who got murdered by I think it was Lazio or it might of been Fiorentina fans I know Fiorentina fans are animals. But with Lazio being racist I remember Aaron Winter the dutch midfielder got a load of off Lazio fans about being Black.
Back to Celtic/Rangers yes Chesco I remember that lad getting murdered its unfortunate that like that happens, but being Celtic fans we can't really point the finger at the Huns as we're just as bad as each other. I was watching something about hooligans on TV and there was one occasion I think Rangers were playing Motherwell, but a couple of the Celtic firms turned up and waited for the Rangers fans who were as they do walking along singing drivvle like 'Hello Hello we are the Billy Boys' Motherwell fans who were in big numbers supposidly routed the Rangers fans so they had to turn a corner where Celtic fans ambushed them, two people got stabbed and one of the Rangers fans died, but at the end of the day it was hooligans on hooligans, that lad who got killed outside the pub weren't a hooligan but as I said both sets of fans aren't chior boys.
I would be lying if I said I had gone to a footie match and not wanted to punch a rival fan who is giving it too much gob. The songs with the old firm aswell will always get people angry when you got people singing the 'Sash' and we're washing our hands in your feinan blood it makes you angry but Celtic fans sing back IRA songs so at the end of the day it winding your rivals up even though some the that comes out is digusting and hurtfull to some people. But banning songs and flags I don't agree it should happen because then it will lose its spark and be IMO really gash.
But too take the spotlight off the old firm look at other teams in the SPL. They all like to have a go too, the pseudo Huns (Hearts), Hibs have some nutters too, Aberdeen (sheep shaggers), Dundee and Dundee Utd. But I suppose because Celtic and Rangers are the big clubs and its got the poltics which you have with the edinburgh clubs aswell, but its got the history so it gets the most spotlight.
And Terracing Evil Bastard glad someone else feels the same :) what happened at Hillsbourgh was unfortunate, however on that day quite a lot of Liverpool fans jumped the turnstyles other clubs used to do it too, leading it to overcrowd thats what led to the disaster if some Liverpool fans want to say I'm speaking please do, as my father used to watch Liverpool play a lot in 70's and he says to me typical style a lot of people got into to Anfield back then would be 1 bloke pays his 4 mates jump the turnstyles, seats are ing uncomfortable like if you ever go to Millenium stadium the seats make the place so steep esepically on the upper tier, it feels everytime you go to have a pint or get up that your going to fall over its a complete nightmare. And the safety arguements in Germany I hear they do terracing and has there been any disasters yet? |
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| evil_bastard |
The problem with terracing is that it's hard to regulate and easier to "let a few more though". I think terracing did cause more problems to be honest, people all bunched together get more aggressive and agitated and are more likely to charge as a group onto the field or at rival fans. It's harder to charge onto the pitch when there are 40 rows of seats in front of you, by the time you climb them all the riot police will be in full force.
It is sad but true that terracing and British fans just didn't go together. That doesn't mean to say the problem has gone away though, it's just moved onto the streets.
Another problem with terracing and everyone standing is the number of people who died over the years not only being crushed to death but parts of stadiums collapsing under the pressure.
What used to be great with terracing was that when your side scored you literally got lifted up off the ground in all the euphoria by everyone around you, it was mayhem. But now with seats everywhere it's just not the same. I never feel comfortable sitting down, espescially not chanting while sitting down, that's just awkward. |
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| Xavier |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan
And Terracing Evil Bastard glad someone else feels the same :) what happened at Hillsbourgh was unfortunate, however on that day quite a lot of Liverpool fans jumped the turnstyles other clubs used to do it too, leading it to overcrowd thats what led to the disaster if some Liverpool fans want to say I'm speaking please do, as my father used to watch Liverpool play a lot in 70's and he says to me typical style a lot of people got into to Anfield back then would be 1 bloke pays his 4 mates jump the turnstyles, seats are ing uncomfortable |
Just to point out the facts...
| quote: | taken from www.contrast.org/hillsborough
Fans set off early and full of optimism on that sunny Saturday morning. Whether they had travelled by road or rail, having left their transport at designated sites they were escorted by police towards the ground. One bereaved father described the areas around the ground as having a 'carnival atmosphere'. Sadly, this atmosphere would soon change.
The build up of fans around the Leppings Lane area increased dramatically around 2p.m. as people began to arrive in greater numbers. It also became known that many coaches were only just arriving having experienced delays from road works and police searches along the way. Clearly a crowd safety issue was emerging. Yet police records indicate little real concern at this stage.
From 2.30p.m. the number of people at the turnstile area was immense and orderly queuing was an impossibility. Fans being searched as they went in to the ground exacerbated this growing problem. Fans were entering a bottleneck. 10,000 fans, three gates, and seven turnstiles - this was the disastrous situation that people with tickets for the Leppings Lane end were walking into. Add to this the number of people with tickets for the West Stand (located above the terracing) who also had to enter by the same three gates and the recipe for disaster increases even further.
Superintendent Marshall was in overall command outside the ground. His record of the day reveals a heavy emphasis on the amount of alcohol being consumed by Liverpool fans. This emphasis was to become the main observation of the police version of events of the day and was the opposite of fans recollections and subsequent forensic evidence.
As conditions worsened fans were increasingly distressed. Those on the inside were struggling to breathe as the numbers swelled. Whilst on the outside the volume of those trying to enter at the Leppings lane end increased by the minute. An officer requested that the kick - off be delayed in order to reassure the crowd that there was no urgency. The request was denied. An inspector asked that the exit gates be opened in order to relieve the pressure outside. Marshall was reluctant to take this course of action because it would allow uncontrolled access to the stadium.
Fans accounts of the scenes outside the Leppings lane area point almost universally to a lack of organisation and control. Trapped in a bottleneck, quite literally, they had nowhere to go except where the momentum of the crowd led them. The fear of fans caught in this situation outside can only be matched by those struggling to survive on the inside.
Eventually Marshall radioed through to Chief Superintendent Duckenfield who was in overall command on the day (despite the fact that he had minimal experience of policing football and absolutely no experience of such a big game) and requested that the exit gates be opened. Duckenfield hesitated (he would later give evidence stating that he 'froze') but eventually gave the order: 'Open the gates'.
Once gate C had been opened police directed fans through the gate. The most obvious entrance to the terraces was through the tunnel opposite into pens 3 and 4. Evidence would later be given that in previous years police and/or stewards would stand at the entrance to the tunnel if these central pens had reached capacity and would direct fans to the side pens.
In 1989 however, no such direction took place as fans headed innocently into already overcrowded pens. It is quite incomprehensible that Duckenfield, failed to follow up the order to open gate C with instructions to allow for the swift increase in the volume of people entering that end of the ground. Indeed the reasoning capacity of Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield has to be seriously challenged when one considers his response to the situation in pens 3 and 4. Logic would inform the average person that the volume outside would be replicated inside once entrance was allowed and that therefore swift monitoring and control would be necessary if a catastrophe was to be averted. Logic however, does not seem to figure large in the consciousness of David Duckenfield. His response to seeing people spill out onto the perimeter track from the crushing in the pens was to call for reinforcements (including dog handlers) as he thought there was a pitch invasion!
This response of Duckenfield is even more obscene when it is realised that from his position in the control box he could clearly see the Leppings Lane end. Moreover, he had the advantage of CCTV with zoom facilities. His later testimony that he was unaware that people were suffering and dying becomes totally unbelievable to those of us who have visited that control box and know that it is possible see the colour of a persons eyes in pens 3 and 4 such was the power of the zoom facilities on the cameras. On the basis of his response given the carnage that could clearly be seen several theories have been postulated:
Duckenfield lacks the ability to reason at a very basic humanitarian level and therefore one has to ask does this reflect on the general standard of senior policing in Britain today.
Duckenfield was totally indifferent to the situation he was witnessing in the pens and ignored the plight of dying people.Duckenfield was not in the control box at all, in which case where was he?
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South Yorkshire Mass Murderer ie David Duckenfield. How can you sleep at night?
Speaking about Hillsborough in just over 2 days time it will be the 14th anniversary. Justice for the 96! |
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