quote:

Originally posted by Chang monkey vinyl is teh master

vinyl is teh hamster

___________________

w: www.luketerry.com

how in hell would vinyl audio have BETTER sound quality than digital audio??? do this for me, grab a song off the net thats been ripped off of a promo cd-r, and put on a record, with an ortofon nightclub. when you first start the cd, do you hear any pops, clicks or surface noise?? hells no! now start the record @ the beginning @ what do you hear??? sure enough, its warm, analog and fuzzy, but you still have surface noise, the occasional click and pop *or more depending on the age of the 12", and so on*...from cd's; the media has been directly pulled from the source audio to a master cd-r, then duplicated time over. vinyl isnt pressed direct from the audio source. its copied to a master like, say a DAT or ===>> CDR <<===! then they go through this long tedious process of making master lacquers or whatever the hell they're called. look it up. vinyl might sound "warmer" (whoever brought out that term was trying to keep their pressing plant open), but cd audio quality is unmatched. try pressin up a vinyl record that goes above or below a certain frequency range and see what happens to the cutter....breaks!! and those behotches are expensive as hell..!!! on cd, u can go any frequency you want, just as long as your sound system can handle.

its true, i love vinyl and will always spin it and collect it (have close to 400 tunes and building every day!), but, cd's are more convenient, last a lot longer, and dont cost a fortune and a half to burn, on a small basis *or large for that fact*. plus, u can make a tune, burn to disc and play that night instead of waitin a minimum 5 day turnaround after the original has been received and re-sent by the 12" pressing plant. i like cd's just as much, the sound quality shouldnt be an issue when you're in a club or on a decent sound system. the digital audio might be a bit clearer and you wont hear any clicks or pops, but they still get the job done.

**if you're a producer and afraid of taking your cd's on the road cuz they sound too digital, throw a vinyl surface noise sample over it, and warm it up a bit with one of those 'warmer' plugins**

hehe>>

the leX has spoken

quote:

Originally posted by lexiconavenue how in hell would vinyl audio have BETTER sound quality than digital audio??? do this for me, grab a song off the net thats been ripped off of a promo cd-r, and put on a record, with an ortofon nightclub. when you first start the cd, do you hear any pops, clicks or surface noise?? hells no! now start the record @ the beginning @ what do you hear??? sure enough, its warm, analog and fuzzy, but you still have surface noise, the occasional click and pop *or more depending on the age of the 12", and so on*...from cd's; the media has been directly pulled from the source audio to a master cd-r, then duplicated time over. vinyl isnt pressed direct from the audio source. its copied to a master like, say a DAT or ===>> CDR <<===! then they go through this long tedious process of making master lacquers or whatever the hell they're called. look it up. vinyl might sound "warmer" (whoever brought out that term was trying to keep their pressing plant open), but cd audio quality is unmatched. try pressin up a vinyl record that goes above or below a certain frequency range and see what happens to the cutter....breaks!! and those behotches are expensive as hell..!!! on cd, u can go any frequency you want, just as long as your sound system can handle. its true, i love vinyl and will always spin it and collect it (have close to 400 tunes and building every day!), but, cd's are more convenient, last a lot longer, and dont cost a fortune and a half to burn, on a small basis *or large for that fact*. plus, u can make a tune, burn to disc and play that night instead of waitin a minimum 5 day turnaround after the original has been received and re-sent by the 12" pressing plant. i like cd's just as much, the sound quality shouldnt be an issue when you're in a club or on a decent sound system. the digital audio might be a bit clearer and you wont hear any clicks or pops, but they still get the job done. **if you're a producer and afraid of taking your cd's on the road cuz they sound too digital, throw a vinyl surface noise sample over it, and warm it up a bit with one of those 'warmer' plugins** hehe>> the leX has spoken

hey do some research before you make a iggnorant post again dumbass.. vinyl is "Warmer" and cd's ARE flat unless played on one of the newer cd turn tables IE cdj1000

___________________
"The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes"

frOst was correct in her description.

CD's have their conveniences, but vinyl is far superior in terms of sound quality (they do have a larger dynamic range ). Does it matter when you're in the club? No, and CD's would be better due to sheer convenience (minus the nostalgia factor). But let's say you're lounging at the house with a few buddies or your S/O listening to some tunes. Science aside for a moment, let's listen to what our ears tell our brain to perceive.

Ideally, vinyl is 100% analogue. Your brain is analogue. Why do you need digital? You don't. You need quality equipment (you should be happy to know that the Technics SL-1200MK2 is a great turntable to use). Starting with the record player (turntable, whatever), if you're using a Stanton cart you DJ with, please chunk it now. They are garbage if you want to get the most out of your LP's at home. Try Grado to begin with (Red, Blue, Gold, etc.). If you want the cream of the crop, try a Shure V15VxMR. You know all those crackles and pops? This is due to static electricity build-up. The Shure cartridges have an anti-static brush that clears the vast majority of these pops and crackles. Visit the respective websites for additional info or request literature.

Ok, let's move on the alignment of your tonearm and cartridge. Chances are (like 99%), they not correctly aligned. Close is not exact (your eyeball is not that straight), and it makes a HUGE difference. Search the web to find out how to properly align your tonearm and cart.

Next, your vinyl needs to be in good shape. When was the last time you cleaned it? What? You never have? DO NOT skimp on a vinyl cleaner. Dust fills in the grooves the music resides on and also causes pops. After you've cleaned your vinyl, the only thing left is static electricity.

While the next part is good for any format, the vinyl experience will change your digital mind.

Please don't tell me you have your turntable playing through your AIWA mini-system or DJ gear at home. Your music is only as good as it's weakest link. If you love music, you owe it to yourself to invest in some high quality home audio gear. First you need a pre-amp. The Adcom GFP-750 is a great choice, as it's Class A, and probably the best for less than $1000 (used), as well as many 3 times it's price. Then you need an amp. I prefer McIntosh, but there are many others. Most any amplifier can shape the sound somewhat, so you should listen to several to see which one(s) you like the best. Tube amps are incredible for electronic music! The life they breath into the music is unreal! If you don't have this kind of cash, the newer lines of Yamaha receivers aren't too shabby.

Of course you need good speakers. This is your choice, as all of these speakers have their own characteristics, but I do suggest you buy towers w/o a sub. Paradigm, B&W, Phase Tech, and McIntosh are all great examples. If you go sub/satellite, you really need a high-end sub. Most subs are very slow to react to the music and will color the sound.

Don't forget the RCA's! Throw your Monster Cables away (cheap junk)! I went to Wal-Mart (yes, WM) and picked up some cheapy RCA "Digital" RCA's that sound more neutral than Monsters. I fell in love with Tributaries (http://www.tributariescable.com/).

Now, after all is said and done and you've got your speakers angled in just right, then dare tell me that CD's sound better than vinyl. You have to experience it to believe it. I don't think anyone can convince you with words if you have your mind made up that digital is better. Even KoRn sounds better on vinyl.

quote:

Originally posted by fr0st hey do some research before you make a iggnorant post again dumbass.. vinyl is "Warmer" and cd's ARE flat unless played on one of the newer cd turn tables IE cdj1000

frost, i wasnt directing that post @ you. lets try not to flame...
about vinyl being gone in a few years except for the collectors, they've been sayin that since cd's first starting getting into rotation years ago. explain to me how a cd is "flat" (flat meaning what? do you mean sounds dont sound quite '3d' like vinyl sounds do? laf!) your post doesnt make sense and you have no proof to back up the "flat vs warm theory", which i think is more apptly titled 'harsh, tinny & cold vs warm, analog". this post is dead because all people ever do is bitch about stupid shit like this, IE frost, who probably owns a massive cd collection, personal cd player, home entertainment center which includes a cd player, cd player for her ride, and no turntables what so ever. y is this subject so controversial anyways? who gives a shit if you can tell the difference between what sounds like a cd and what sounds like a record? its about the music isnt it? ...lets say you're @ a party and the dj has a promo he got that night thats on the dreaded 'CDR' you talk so harshly about...you're telling me that you're gonna notice the difference in sound quality and stop dancing and having a good time? and just how exactly does a pioneer cdj1000 make the cd's sound warmer? kinda like an oven i suppose, eh ??? i think you're talking about 'legato link conversion' which pioneer states is capable of reproducing frequencies above 20khz which are lost during normal cd playback. im not real sure the exactness of this, but i do know for a fact that the average ear perceives frequencies from 20 hz to 20,000hz (or 20 khz) so going above that wouldnt replicate any type of warmthness....please dont call me a dumbass for speaking my opinion. i respect everybody's and so should you. flamers are lamers.

whatever my opinion is, ignorance is bliss.

resPect
leX
PS-did you guys totally miss the part where i said i still love to play and collect vinyl??????? and for the last post before this one, listen to a cd and a vinyl tune on a club sound system, 30k watts and above. i guarantee the only difference you will notice is the sounds are more separated...which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your personal tastes

much love to fr0st...we need to get together and make some music. and bt is one of my favorite producers too! so we do have something in common!!!

Last edited by lexiconavenue on Jan-18-2004 at 04:03

Theoretically I think it's possible to reproduce any sound quality possible with digital audio. CDs (44100 kHz, 16 bit stereo) are good, but not perfect, and if you want the best possible quality, higher encodings are the way to go. If somebody brought out a 1 GHz 64 bit media, then undoubtedly it would sound superb, but like Daver said, a sound system is only as good as it's weakest link. If the digital-to-audio conversion is bad or the amp is crap, then obviously your CD isn't gonna sound as good as a vinyl in terms of quality.

Also, you have to kinda give into the fact that a perfect reproduction of the original sound is not necessarily what's desired. If you want that big, fuzzified, boomy sound that vinyl offers, then you generally have to throw some filters/effects over the CD to make it sound the same. But vinyl will never sound 100% crisp, clean and perfect because of analog sound. Since most of us are used to hearing music in a club spun on vinyl, we're used to the warm, fuzzified, vinyl sound, so it becomes the sound we desire with our home systems in order to replicate the experience. If we all listened to the crisp digital sound of CDs being played at clubs, then that would be the desired sound elsewhere. So really it's a matter of preference. Digital audio may replicate the original sound more precisely, but it doesn't have quite the same sound that makes vinyl such a unique, desirable media. Take your pick - there's no real right or wrong answer.

___________________
I am nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore I am perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Elyot Theoretically I think it's possible to reproduce any sound quality possible with digital audio. CDs (44100 kHz, 16 bit stereo) are good, but not perfect, and if you want the best possible quality, higher encodings are the way to go. If somebody brought out a 1 GHz 64 bit media, then undoubtedly it would sound superb, but like Daver said, a sound system is only as good as it's weakest link. If the digital-to-audio conversion is bad or the amp is crap, then obviously your CD isn't gonna sound as good as a vinyl in terms of quality. Also, you have to kinda give into the fact that a perfect reproduction of the original sound is not necessarily what's desired. If you want that big, fuzzified, boomy sound that vinyl offers, then you generally have to throw some filters/effects over the CD to make it sound the same. But vinyl will never sound 100% crisp, clean and perfect because of analog sound. Since most of us are used to hearing music in a club spun on vinyl, we're used to the warm, fuzzified, vinyl sound, so it becomes the sound we desire with our home systems in order to replicate the experience. If we all listened to the crisp digital sound of CDs being played at clubs, then that would be the desired sound elsewhere. So really it's a matter of preference. Digital audio may replicate the original sound more precisely, but it doesn't have quite the same sound that makes vinyl such a unique, desirable media. Take your pick - there's no real right or wrong answer.

well said m8

There's some things that I don't totally understand, as I'm no electrical engineer, but I do rely upon my ears to decide sound quality for me. Please understand, that I'm not arguing any point (vinyl vs. CD, I've already stated my position), I'm just trying to clarify my own thoughts.

CD's are nice, don't get me wrong. They can sound absolutely marvelous, especially when well recorded. I really have no beef against CD's, as they are my media of choice, although I do like the vinyl Sometimes, when I'm just needing to feel a warmth to the music, kind of like lighting a fire in the fireplace, I put on the vinyl. The difference is comforting--the digital CD is very precise in it's nature. However, vinyl is very analogue, and is comforting. The soundstage is warm, meaning the digital crispness is gone, kind of like anti-aliasing on your video card...it smooths out the digital "edge." Everything blends together, creating a very easy-to-listen-to sound; a very aurally pleasing sound.

Another aspect to vinyl is the depth of the soundstage. While CD's can toss up a mirror image, vinyl replicates a "blended and balanced" stage. Things are localized without being "overly localized." This means that the sounds and details flow together like water rather than lasers, all the while creating a highly believable soundstage. With digital, you can pinpoint the drummer, while with analogue, you know the drummer is in a certain location.

I am totally against filters and DSP. Not only do they degrade the sound quality, but the usually sound like ass. Any sound manipulation outside of the digital domain, provided analogue hasn't been converted to digital beforehand, will suffer. It takes some time to get used to pure sound, but when you do, it's very nice, and the details become much more apparent. However, you can manipulate the audio sound by using different equipment. Almost every piece of audio equipment sounds different. It takes a lot of time and experimentation to notice this, but once you do, you can tailor the sound without using filters or DSP. Example: tube vs. solid state.

Oh well, when the day is over with, I'm just happy to have the music to listen to, whether it be CD, vinyl, or MP3's. You can't take what's most important for granted.

very well put m8...i see what you mean now...the other was being a bit unclear! but, like you said..in the end, it is just all about the music

respect
leX

if the sound was really superior none of the djs would be spinning on vinyl anymore. the ones that spin on cds are because convenience, or because they have a promo not in vinyl yet. it's not because there's a better sound. pro djs are all about giving the best sound, and it's just not on a cd. there's very little that you can do on a tech 1200 that you can't do on a cdj1000mk2. so it's not a useability issue anymore like it was before. It's a sound quality issue.

if your a true hardcore dj that spins at clubs and big parties then vinyl is the only way to go.

if your like me that loves the music and loves to just mess around with djing and wouldn't mind plaing at a...............oh what the heck

Well you can still get better sound quality with digitial... even if CD is not 100% effective at replicating the original sound, it still does so better than vinyl. But even though vinyl may be of lower quality much of the time, as most people would agree, the fuzzy mash they bring into a song is more aurally pleasing, so for most gigs, DJs would prefer to go vinyl.

So the question about which is better boils down to this? What do you care more about: replicating the original sound to perfection or creating a sound that is most pleasing to listen to? And if the DJs are concerned about the sound quality of turntables, they can always upgrade to more expensive ones with sound quality approaching that of CD and other digital media... also they can take extra good care of their vinyls to make sure they sound good for a long time. When quality no longer becomes an issue, I think most would opt for vinyl. But for maximum quality, digital wins out hands down.

Also I should note that I'm very amused by Daver's analogy of "flowing like water rather than lasers" LOL!!

___________________
I am nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore I am perfect.

Last edited by DJ_Elyot on Jan-18-2004 at 16:09