quote:

Originally posted by spec I wonder if anybody has the displeasure of being in the military service here. It is said that strongest form of brainwashing in the world today is the type that occurs in the armed forces. Not only does this equip personel to do humanless acts whilst serving but also fail to live in society as decent members. In Australia there has just been a case of 2 SAS soldiers being busted for trying to attack a pregnant ex-girlfriend with the aim of her losing the baby from the planned severe beating. The judge questioned the methods of training used with these soldiers because many other members have faced the courts on counts of severe anti-social behaviour. On top of that we've had so many drug scandals with soldiers and a major government enquiry into the suicide of a soldier whilst in training. This enquiry found a culture of abuse within the army. I've read many psychological journals written that suggest that mammals killing their own kind is very unusual in all species, including humans, and massive amounts of mental conditioning needs to take place before it can be done. I wonder what a member of the armed forces would do when faced with an order that defies his/her moral principles? Is there right or wrong, or is it just yes and no?

I'll reserve comment for the orignal thread. I'm retired from the military, continue to work for the military as a civilian, and take offense about your generalizations that anyone in service is brainwashed. We are highly disciplined and obediently follow orders which civilians can't understand when our very lives can be in jeopardy by doing so. Killing other combatants in a wartime environ is humanless. The people you kill are trying to kill you as well. Killing people in general is not acceptable although collateral deaths occur when innocents get in the way of fighting. US troops are given ethical training routinely about the laws of land warfare to prevent occurences of the slaughter of innocents such as Mei Lei in Vietnam. Basically the training reiterates that you shouldn't intentionally be killing noncombatants regardless of the orders of a superior which is inherently and morally wrong. The US inculcates a Values system of training as well to instill right from wrong in its troops. Of course no system is infallible and you have transgressions such as the Abu Gharib prison abuse which belies the teachings and training the soldiers were brought up in. To counter your arguments, I would point out that the incidents of abuse or transgression of the rules pertaining to noncombatants are very few and far between in the ongoing war. I'd also like to point out that the barbaric beheading of military and noncombatant prisoners without trial or due process speaks volumes about the differences between the conduct of our soldiers and that of the insurgents in Iraq and elsewhere.
Don't criticize the military if you only pretend to know the culture.


[[[smoke]]]

quote:

Originally posted by Michael19 is funding for FBI and CIA included in military funding?

No it is not, those are 2 very different organizations with different capabilities and roles.

I'm a pretty nice guy.

You can't take the actions of a few nut-jobs around the world who happen to be in the military and blame in on brainwashing.

With that being said, I think the military tries to brainwash you. Not to do the shit you said; more realistically, to respect people with more rank than you and be supportive of the military cause.

Neither worked for me, hence me getting out in a year - and as for respect, you have to earn it to me, it's not automatically given to you just because you're older or have a higher "position". However, these things are needed in military warfare. I'm just not cut-out for it for life.

Getting out in a year? Chapter 13,14, or 15? You're beyond the entry level separation.


[[[smoke]]]

Audio Sweet - Sunshine After the Rain (Club Mix)

Did ******** just say that police are trained to kill? Killing is the last thing the police try to do. Even if they shoot you with a handgun they don't go for a killing shot. But far short of that they will try anything else such as mace, tasers, rubber bullets, shotguns that shoot beanbags, tear gas, and/or strength of numbers to take someone down.

The police and the military are both constantly trying to invent wacky nonlethal weapons that might effectively take down individuals or a group of people in various environments while doing the least amount of damage to the enemy(ies)/criminal(s) as possible.

___________________
Robots, machines, mechanical beings
Automatic and synthetic, we have the means
To take control of this planet and the human race
With our electronic rhythms and the Armageddon Bass

Last edited by Radagast on Aug-12-2004 at 03:36

The military imposes its will by force of arms. The military is directed to do so by civilian authority who know the consequences of doing so. The military does not murder because they are given legal authority by their government to impose their will.

Sounds about right, huh?


[[[smoke]]]

Marc Aurel - Running

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape I'll reserve comment for the orignal thread. I'm retired from the military, continue to work for the military as a civilian, and take offense about your generalizations that anyone in service is brainwashed. We are highly disciplined and obediently follow orders which civilians can't understand when our very lives can be in jeopardy by doing so. Killing other combatants in a wartime environ is humanless. The people you kill are trying to kill you as well. Killing people in general is not acceptable although collateral deaths occur when innocents get in the way of fighting. US troops are given ethical training routinely about the laws of land warfare to prevent occurences of the slaughter of innocents such as Mei Lei in Vietnam. Basically the training reiterates that you shouldn't intentionally be killing noncombatants regardless of the orders of a superior which is inherently and morally wrong. The US inculcates a Values system of training as well to instill right from wrong in its troops. Of course no system is infallible and you have transgressions such as the Abu Gharib prison abuse which belies the teachings and training the soldiers were brought up in. To counter your arguments, I would point out that the incidents of abuse or transgression of the rules pertaining to noncombatants are very few and far between in the ongoing war. I'd also like to point out that the barbaric beheading of military and noncombatant prisoners without trial or due process speaks volumes about the differences between the conduct of our soldiers and that of the insurgents in Iraq and elsewhere. Don't criticize the military if you only pretend to know the culture. [[[smoke]]]

So what happens if an order defies a person's own moral beliefs? Can he or she defy an order on these grounds?

Or does the military training ensure that a decision that is morally right is the same as the order you are given?

A basic human right, something that seperates us from the animals at least, is the ability to make decisions based upon our own moral viewpoint, and this is something that can be taken away when in the armed forces. By inference such a job requires selling a large part of your soul.

But as you point out, its just that civilians don't understand these orders that are given, its not brainwashing at all. Great logic that.

___________________
TA all round nice guy.

quote:

Originally posted by spec So what happens if an order defies a person's own moral beliefs? Can he or she defy an order on these grounds? Or does the military training ensure that a decision that is morally right is the same as the order you are given? A basic human right, something that seperates us from the animals at least, is the ability to make decisions based upon our own moral viewpoint, and this is something that can be taken away when in the armed forces. By inference such a job requires selling a large part of your soul. But as you point out, its just that civilians don't understand these orders that are given, its not brainwashing at all. Great logic that.

Point well taken and not explained previously. Military personnel are specifically trained about unlawful orders, such as killing noncombatants. Raping and pillaging are in there as well, but gist is about murder. That kinda informs you I hope so you don't think the soldiers are out there blindly following orders from some moron in charge.


[[[smoke]]]

Ian van Dahl - State of Mind

quote:

Originally posted by spec So what happens if an order defies a person's own moral beliefs? Can he or she defy an order on these grounds? Or does the military training ensure that a decision that is morally right is the same as the order you are given? A basic human right, something that seperates us from the animals at least, is the ability to make decisions based upon our own moral viewpoint, and this is something that can be taken away when in the armed forces. By inference such a job requires selling a large part of your soul. But as you point out, its just that civilians don't understand these orders that are given, its not brainwashing at all. Great logic that.

Your argument might hold merit if the military were structured in such a way that a soldier must obey a commanding officer above any other consideration without question, however, that is not the case. The US military, and most militaries I would imagine, have specific codes of justice whereby they have an "out" should their commanding order violate such codes. These codes all contain the basic precepts of agreed upon international standards such as the geneva and hague conventions as well additional measures. Therefore, unless your orders compromise these set of standards, than you do as your told because a democratic military isn't much of a military.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by spec So what happens if an order defies a person's own moral beliefs? Can he or she defy an order on these grounds?

What an awesome thought. I think you should make a war movie about this issue! Why it would make millions!

___________________
Robots, machines, mechanical beings
Automatic and synthetic, we have the means
To take control of this planet and the human race
With our electronic rhythms and the Armageddon Bass

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape Point well taken and not explained previously. Military personnel are specifically trained about unlawful orders, such as killing noncombatants. Raping and pillaging are in there as well, but gist is about murder. That kinda informs you I hope so you don't think the soldiers are out there blindly following orders from some moron in charge. [[[smoke]]] Ian van Dahl - State of Mind

What if the order is in fact lawful, not in regards to rape or murder, but is still against someone's morals?

Can you picture this situation, because it is possible, or do I need to provide a theoretical example for you to get the drift?

___________________
TA all round nice guy.

What kind of idiot joins the military if they don't believe in the law that the military is based upon?

___________________
Robots, machines, mechanical beings
Automatic and synthetic, we have the means
To take control of this planet and the human race
With our electronic rhythms and the Armageddon Bass