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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I didn't know you were such a brainwashed racist asshole devoid of any principle or honor.

Come on now, I am sure you can do much better than that. That's just boring.

Now, I already knew you were a nugatory, pusillanimous toad, rife with pernicious quixotism and vulgar sentiment. I have never held it against you, though. To be prickly to what is small, after all, is only wisdom for hedgehogs.

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Originally posted by Krypton LOL. Are you incapable of focusing on the argument, or can you not control your urge to hurl pathetic insults my way...Cynical smilies are my trademark! Tell you what, I'll tone it down if you tone it down...

alright alright... I don't want to go any further with you anyway because I like you. I just don't like your arguments the way I see them in the PDD most of the time. Tone, officially down.

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I didn't know you could tell the future?

It's based on past history... no matter what the Jews do, they are hated. First it was for being a wandering people with no home who had no business taking up space in other peoples' countries, then they were hated for having a country they called home. It's just the way it is; it has gone on forever and it will go on forever.

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As for Obama, I sincerely hope he cuts off all military aide for Israel unless they meet certain conditions under international law, namely, dismantling all settlements, lifting the blockade, and ceding East Jerusalem.

You know that will never happen. And how come you never mention the thousands of Israeli families that were uprooted from Gaza in 2005 when Israel agreed to withdraw from there? This question was posed to Mahmoud Abbas in 2005 right after the withdrawel (by Natan Sharansky):

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Now that we have uprooted thousands of Jews and empowered Gazans to be masters of their own fate, can we hope that within a year's time there will be fewer refugees in the camps? "Absolutely not," he said. "The refugees will be relocated only in the context of the final status [agreement]. How can we move them if we do not know where they will live? Maybe they will live in Israel." In withdrawing from Gaza, Israel made painful concessions for peace by forcibly removing Jews from their homes. And yet even the Palestinian Authority, the most moderate among Palestinian political groups, would not consider easing their own people's plight in the wake of Israel's compromise. This is because the suffering of the refugees is essential to their broader political struggle. How does the West respond to the obvious exploitation of Palestinian refugees? Soon after my meeting with Mr. Abbas's chief of staff, I met with the ambassador of one of the West's most enlightened countries. I asked: Why are the Palestinians not willing to help their own refugees? "I can understand them," he answered. "After all, they don't want the refugee problem to be taken off the agenda."

Can't you see how the people you so ardently defend exploit their own people so "disgustingly", as you like to put it?

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Horrible, horrible analogy. First off, these "Canadian militant muslims groups"...LOL...are not an elected party. Secondly, the USA does not occupy nor blockade Canada.

Obviously, it was a hypothetical... I thought you'd see the point I was trying to make.

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You assumed we kept our part of the bargain? LOL. Tisk tisk. What do you mean China and "other dictators" don't do whatever the fuck they want when they want? China/Sudan/Darfur. Thought about that one? Egypt tortures and suppresses dissent. Hmmm...Saudi Arabia is an extremist theocratic monarchy. LOL. Our government is so full of bullshit. They lie to us through their teeth, and its unfortunate that many take them at their very word, unquestionably.

Ok man... you'll have to re-read again. I said "And yeah, those Chinese and other dictators sure aren't doin whatever the fuck they want when they want" complete with an eye roll icon showing sarcasm.... meaning, they obviously DO do whatever they want regardless of the diplomacy that you champoin. Don't forget about Hugo Chavez too.

In N. Korea.... we didn't keep our end of the bargain? Look what 10 years of liberal S. Korean diplomacy policies got for them... an even more defiant N. Korea now threatening to destroy them with their newly proclaimed nukes. From the article--->

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"It will be wrong if the United States thinks that we are giving up nuclear programme in exchange for normalising diplomatic ties with them," a spokesman was quoted as saying by the official Korea Central News Agency. Despite an agreement struck at the six-nation talks in Beijing, North Korea has delayed dismantling its nuclear weapons programme, amid disagreements over verification rules and energy aid.

They are the ones not following the rules. They aren't even allowing UN inspectors in there, which is THEM breaking the agreement. Why are you so quick to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt to countries run by crazy dictators?

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Originally posted by Arbiter Come on now, I am sure you can do much better than that. That's just boring.

It wasn't said for your amusement, nor do I operate on that pathetic level consciousness or social interaction. You're not terribly familiar with the concept of honest expression or criticism, and don't seem to be able to handle it whatsoever. Grow some balls, real ones.

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Originally posted by Arbiter Now, I already knew you were a nugatory, pusillanimous toad, rife with pernicious quixotism and vulgar sentiment. I have never held it against you, though. To be prickly to what is small, after all, is only wisdom for hedgehogs.

No, I'm just not an insecure dick like you with a macho complex. I think people actually have a right to live, regardless of weather they're Palestinian or Jewish, and should not be subjected to the brutality of a military / militia force. You on the other hand said that the Palestinians deserve it for voting in Hamas. First of all, you presumptuous asshole, they didn't vote in a party for a desire to kill... despite Hamas' deplorable ideological motifs embedded in the organization, they're one of the few organizations actually providing some kind of relief when it comes to daily living. And by your argument, Americans deserve to die for voting in regimes that sponsor terrorism globally and topple over regimes, you know, state sponsored terrorism, the kind you seem to conveniently ignore. Your logic is genocidal and fucked up, not to mention totally hypocritical. And earlier you said all Arabs / Muslims are animals or something to that effect. You've also been around for a while and by this point have had plenty of exposure to the facts of the matter and grievances of all involved in the fiasco, so you should be able to do better than that.

I think that kind of hypocrisy fits the description you gave earlier you much more appropriately, another typical case of weak men projecting their insecurities on others. I found it to be rather disappointing since you're capable of much more; it wasn't an attempt at insulting you, despite being strongly worded and offensive. Like I said, I don't operate on that pathetic level.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by The17sss alright alright... I don't want to go any further with you anyway because I like you. I just don't like your arguments the way I see them in the PDD most of the time. Tone, officially down.

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It's based on past history... no matter what the Jews do, they are hated. First it was for being a wandering people with no home who had no business taking up space in other peoples' countries, then they were hated for having a country they called home. It's just the way it is; it has gone on forever and it will go on forever.

The Palestinians deserve what every other nation-state has. Sovereignty. Just because the Jews have had great misfortune in the past does not mean Israel have a right to project such misfortune on others.

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You know that will never happen. And how come you never mention the thousands of Israeli families that were uprooted from Gaza in 2005 when Israel agreed to withdraw from there? This question was posed to Mahmoud Abbas in 2005 right after the withdrawel (by Natan Sharansky):

Yea, AIPAC has our leadership by leash. Why don't I mention the Israeli families uprooted from Gaza. Easy. It wasn't their bloody land. they stole. They deserved to be uprooted. And WTF do they have to complain about? The ones that left voluntarily were compensated.

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Can't you see how the people you so ardently defend exploit their own people so "disgustingly", as you like to put it?

Yea, I'm going to let a Zionist explain why Palestine is a failed state. I think its absolutely ridiculous to assert the Palestinian leadership purposefully keeps its people destitute? Complete and utter nonsense.

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Obviously, it was a hypothetical... I thought you'd see the point I was trying to make.

Yes, but the analogy was blatantly fallacious.

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Ok man... you'll have to re-read again. I said "And yeah, those Chinese and other dictators sure aren't doin whatever the fuck they want when they want" complete with an eye roll icon showing sarcasm.... meaning, they obviously DO do whatever they want regardless of the diplomacy that you champoin. Don't forget about Hugo Chavez too. In N. Korea.... we didn't keep our end of the bargain? Look what 10 years of liberal S. Korean diplomacy policies got for them... an even more defiant N. Korea now threatening to destroy them with their newly proclaimed nukes. From the article---> They are the ones not following the rules. They aren't even allowing UN inspectors in there, which is THEM breaking the agreement. Why are you so quick to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt to countries run by crazy dictators?

I didn't say North Korea was faithful to every agreement. I am saying that neither side kept its end of the bargain. Why am I so quick to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt to country's run by crazy dictators? Actually, I don't. What pisses me off is when my government, who in my name, supports a brutal occupation of Palestine. Or when we occupy countries and all of a sudden, are surprised that the occupied resist. Or when we preach about democracy, but then are in bed with dictators, hypocrisy. Or when our leaders lie through their teeth and have no accountability. I don't care about Iran, North Korea, or whatever government they have. I care that my government, MINE, does not desecrate my great country and name, and thus bring hatred and danger to my life by such actions/policies. 9/11 did not happen because some angry Arabs woke up one day and decided, "hey i feel like flying a plane into building."

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There's a youtube video someone had sent me a few weeks back that hits home with this topic. Watch closely, especially after the 2 minute 25 second mark. It's the kind of stuff people like Krypton will never truly understand, or will want to understand:
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSfeNkJgBI

Last edited by CHRles on Jan-19-2009 at 19:04

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Originally posted by Krypton

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Originally posted by CHRles There's a youtube video someone had sent me a few weeks back that hits home with this topic. Watch closely, especially after the 2 minute 25 second mark. It's the kind of stuff people like Krypton will never truly understand, or will want to understand: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSfeNkJgBI

nice find CHRles... like I said, it's "en vogue" to hate jews and blame them for everything, and no matter what concessions thay make or who they appease, there will just be new reasons found to hate them. This video is a good example of that.

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Originally posted by CHRles There's a youtube video someone had sent me a few weeks back that hits home with this topic. Watch closely, especially after the 2 minute 25 second mark. It's the kind of stuff people like Krypton will never truly understand, or will want to understand: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSfeNkJgBI

What's your point? Are you calling all Arabs Nazis now? Once again, you can't resist the urge to address me instead of my arguments. how pathetic...

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Originally posted by The17sss nice find CHRles... like I said, it's "en vogue" to hate jews and blame them for everything, and no matter what concessions thay make or who they appease, there will just be new reasons found to hate them. This video is a good example of that.

There is a distinction between Judaism and the state of Israel. I thought you'd know that. Israel is a state not a religion. That state is and should be held accountable before international law just like every other state. I don't see why Israel gets a free pass on whatever they want. Undeclared nuclear weapons, illegal annexations, collective punishment schemes...

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z It wasn't said for your amusement, nor do I operate on that pathetic level consciousness or social interaction. You're not terribly familiar with the concept of honest expression or criticism, and don't seem to be able to handle it whatsoever. Grow some balls, real ones.

It's precisely the fact that it wasn't said for my amusement that makes it so amusing. If it had been intended as a joke it would have been a lackluster one, but the fact that it is "honest expression" makes it far more revealing, and what is revealed is rather droll.

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No, I'm just not an insecure dick like you with a macho complex. I think people actually have a right to live, regardless of weather they're Palestinian or Jewish, and should not be subjected to the brutality of a military / militia force. You on the other hand said that the Palestinians deserve it for voting in Hamas. First of all, you presumptuous asshole, they didn't vote in a party for a desire to kill... despite Hamas' deplorable ideological motifs embedded in the organization, they're one of the few organizations actually providing some kind of relief when it comes to daily living. And by your argument, Americans deserve to die for voting in regimes that sponsor terrorism globally and topple over regimes, you know, state sponsored terrorism, the kind you seem to conveniently ignore. Your logic is genocidal and fucked up, not to mention totally hypocritical. And earlier you said all Arabs / Muslims are animals or something to that effect. You've also been around for a while and by this point have had plenty of exposure to the facts of the matter and grievances of all involved in the fiasco, so you should be able to do better than that.

All I am saying is that when you play with fire, you accept the risk that you'll be burned. I'm well aware that they believed that they had a good reason for playing with fire--they had to make a choice, risk versus reward. Now they are getting the bad with the good; excuse me if I'm not teary-eyed for them. The right to life certainly does not entail a right to be free of the consequences of one's decisions.

The real victims here are the Palestinians who did not vote for Hamas. They made a prudent choice and yet they still must bear the consequences of the unwise choices of their neighbors. It's a shame--another miserable chapter in the squalid history of majoritarian government. But if they die, that blood is on the hands of those neighbors and the government that has led them to their death. If they are to die, I suggest that they go down fighting against their real enemies--those among them who choose badly.

We are all animals, struggling to survive just as our ancestors have for millenia. It's almost certainly true that there are plenty of Americans who deserve to die. But Americans have an advantage--good decisions in the past have created considerable room for error in the present. But nothing lasts forever. If and when Americans bring destruction upon themselves, then--in the only sense that matters--they will "deserve" those consequences as well...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Well, Hamas kinda won, actually. Look at Gaza. And think of what Palestinians think of this. GO ISRAEL GO?!? I dont think so.

The declaration of victory for Hamas amounts to a poor attempt at face-saving, as its leadership has been decimated and its infrastructure heavily damaged... and since the IDF remains in position in Gaza:

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In a speech broadcast on Hamas television on Sunday night, Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniyeh said the Palestinians had achieved a historical and strategic victory over Israel, and claimed that Israel's military operation in the Gaza Strip had failed. The Hamas leader repeated the terror organization's demand for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the Strip, and for the opening of the border crossings.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull

Note to Hamas: When the enemy has its army encamped in your territory and you have to make demands for them to leave when the fighting stops, you didn't win. They had a cease-fire in place in December, without Israeli soldiers all over Gaza, and Hamas ended it in a hail of missile and rocket fire. A month later, several of their top people are dead, Gaza has been heavily damaged, and they're isolated politically among other Arab nations, plus the IDF is now holding Gaza in a vise grip, and all Hamas has is another cease-fire. Yeah … some victory. LOL!

Where's the UN now by the way?

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Hamas militiamen have rounded up hundreds of Fatah activists on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel during Operation Cast Lead, Fatah members in the Gaza Strip told The Jerusalem Post on Monday. The Fatah members and eyewitnesses said the detainees were being held in school buildings and hospitals that Hamas had turned into make-shift interrogation centers. Hamas has also renewed house arrest orders that were issued against thousands of Fatah officials and activists in the Gaza Strip shortly after the military operation started. A Fatah official in Ramallah told the Post that at least 100 of his men had been killed or wounded as a result of the massive Hamas crackdown. Some had been brutally tortured, he added. The official said that the perpetrators belonged to Hamas's armed wing, Izaddin Kassam, and to the movement's Internal Security Force. According to the official, at least three of the detainees had their eyes put out by their interrogators, who accused them of providing Israel with wartime information about the location of Hamas militiamen and officials. A number of Hamas leaders and spokesmen have claimed in the past few days that Fatah members in the Gaza Strip had been spying on their movement and passing the information to Israel. Two Hamas officials, Salah Bardaweel and Fawzi Barhoum, accused Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and his "spies" in the Gaza Strip of tipping off the Israelis about the movements of slain Hamas interior minister Said Siam, who was killed in an IAF strike on his brother's home in Gaza City last week. The Fatah official in Ramallah said that, apart from being baseless, the allegations were aimed at paving the way for a ruthless Hamas attack on Fatah activists in the Gaza Strip. "They were afraid to confront the Israeli army and many Hamas militiamen even ran away during the fighting," he said. "Hamas is now venting its anger and frustration against our Fatah members there." Eyewitnesses said that Hamas militiamen had turned a number of hospitals and schools into temporary detention centers where dozens of Fatah members and supporters were being held on suspicion of helping Israel during the war. The eyewitnesses said that a children's hospital and a mental health center in Gaza City, as well as a number of school buildings in Khan Yunis and Rafah, were among the places that Hamas had turned into "torture centers." A Fatah activist in Gaza City claimed that as many as 80 members of his faction were either shot in the legs or had their hands broken for allegedly defying Hamas's house-arrest orders. "What's happening in the Gaza Strip is a new massacre that is being carried out by Hamas against Fatah," he said. "Where were these [Hamas] cowards when the Israeli army was here?" The activist said that Hamas's security forces had also confiscated cellular phones and computers belonging to thousands of local Fatah members and supporters. Relatives of Abed al-Gharabli, a former Fatah security officer who spent 12 years in Israeli prisons, said he was kidnapped by a group of Hamas militiamen who shot him in both legs after severely torturing him. Ziad Abu Hayeh, one of the commanders of Fatah's armed wing, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, is reported to have lost his sight after Hamas gunmen put out his eyes. According to Fatah activists, Abu Hayeh was kidnapped from his home in Khan Yunis by Hamas militiamen. The Fatah men said that in a number of incidents, Hamas militiamen had kidnapped Fatah activists while they were attending the funerals of people killed during the war. In other cases, activists were detained and shot in the legs after they were spotted smiling in public - an act interpreted by Hamas as an expression of joy over Israel's military offensive. On Saturday night, three brothers from the Subuh family were abducted by Hamas militiamen and taken to the Abdel Aziz Rantisi Mosque in Khan Yunis, where they were shot in the legs, a local journalist told the Post. In a more recent incident, Hamas gunmen shot and killed 80-year-old Hisham Tawfik Najjar after storming his home and beating his four sons - all Fatah activists. Fahmi Za'areer, a Fatah spokesman in the West Bank, revealed that at least 16 Fatah activists had been executed by Hamas in the past few days. He strongly condemned the Hamas clampdown on Fatah and warned against a bloodbath in the Gaza Strip. A leaflet distributed by the Aksa Martyrs Brigades in various parts of the Gaza Strip called on Hamas to "respect the blood of the Palestinian martyrs" and stop pursuing Fatah members. The leaflet said that Hamas had placed hundreds of Fatah men under house arrest in the past 48 hours and was warning that anyone who failed to comply with these orders would be shot.

article from jpost.com

How low can you get really?

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”