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Originally posted by The17sss haha... you're totally taking the Hamas bait exactly as they want. If Canada or the U.S. or England or whoever was getting hit with rockets from a neighboring country, INDESCRIMINATLY dropping into civillian areas, what do you think would happen? So what if 200 people have been killed in one day... Israel is at least specifically targeting Hamas and being as surgical in nature as they can be; Hamas has been asking for this and is trying to get sympathy from all over the world, especially from naive fools like yourself, and play the victim. You think they Israel should count the exact number of rockets and send the exact same amount back "to be fair"? Think about it... if Canada launched about 200 rockets into Detroit, regardless of the number of people they killed, the U.S. would have the right to hit back as necessary.

And you are eating up the Israli bait like a fucking guppy by responding to what is clearly an irational outburst of pasionate, yet (sorry man) rather dull drivel. Can't you accept that some level of outrage is going to be the result of indescriminate airial attacks (or maybe barely descriminate would be a better term.)

If Canada were to launch 200 rockets into Detroit I would expect, and even support a US response. Here is where I am going to start ripping on the US populus though.

What is clear from your post is that you are ignorant of your suroundings. You should have realized that when you confused your geographic subdivisions. Isn't it extremely clear that Canada is a country where as Detroit is a city? Do you even see how massive a problem that is? Windsor is the city opposite Detroit, it's a rather substantial city by any measure, European, American, but probably not Asian.

So then the first problem becomes apparent. If you were in charge of the country Vancouver might have been leveled for the attacks of some six people in Windsor. That would be like dropping Napalm on Seatle in response to what a bunch of people in New York did, or invading Iraq after an attack on new york by Saudi nationals trained in Afganistan ... why do I bother?

And then there is the issue of 'the right to hit back as nessesary'. The majority of the world complains not about the fact that Isreal responds to the aggresion of a minority but that the country responds BEYOND what is nessesary. Getting back to the example of rockets in Detroit, the type of response that the Israli army has made a 'normal' response would be the same as destroying swaths of Toronto for attacks of a minority in Windsor (Windsor is some 4 hours or more away from Toronto, I've never even been to Windsor yet I live in Toronto, the cities are not all that closely tied together.)

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The best way to resolve this conflict is to allow Hamas to have its war and get utterly crushed by Israel or overthrown by Gazans to avoid that unavoidable conclusion. Hamas insists on a war of annihilation and won't accept any other solution. Let them have it.

The problem is that Hamas is an organization, Gaza is a territory. War isn't war any more, no longer do nation states 'go to war'. Instead discontent people attack authorities, a minority of people. There is no way that the peaceful people in Gaza stand a chance of establishing any kind of authority that would be capable of disarming the militant minority if Isreal keeps destroying the infrastructure of the region and creating legions of new angry men with nothing to loose.

Give these people something to live for and they will be less willing to martch to war.

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Originally posted by TranceGiant Make no mistake: This IS the only way to solve this situation. Everything else is an illusion. History and statistics are very clear about this: Aggression doesn't defeat terrorism. Ridiculous violence does. It DOES.

How does this logic apply to the Irgun? theyre commander was prime minister 1977-1983.

what if the brits had gone after the Irgun with extreme violence like you suggest.Chase em evil doers W style. Im pretty sure the fate of Israel today would have been quite different. no-they walked away, and it was dissolved in the IDF.

one question-do u think the King David Hotel bombings were justified?

I think terrorism 20th century onward has taken a different face, perhaps your statistics dont apply as fluidly. tamils, basques, pkk, etc etc the list goes on of people that have a mentality that they will fight to the death, and when they die, theyre sons get angered and want to avenge their father's death

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yes, because in war proportionism is somehow relevant...

The issue of proportion is very relevant. It is relevant in determining how long a war lasts, how many allies each side has, and how any peace will be brokered.

Isreal has to realize that thier protactorate is crumbling and that getting more allies will be the way forward. The longer the Isreali government maintains a policy of dispropotionate response the fewer people / peoples are going to be willing to step up and help Isreal in times of trouble.

Once again I must be quite clear about what Isreal is facing. How much longer can the US honestly be counted uppon to provide the elevated level of financial support that continues to be transfered to the country?

In the end the population of the US is going to really start to question why they are giving Isreal so much money each year as they sit jobless in a crumbling economy.

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Originally posted by CHRles If you people actually care about the people of Gaza, those so-called innocent civilians, then you'll put pressure on Hamas.

I agree, there is no question that Hamas needs to be pressured.

This preassure will never come to bear in the middle of a country made of rubble and filled with widdows.

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Originally posted by Q5echo yeah, and you haven't heard a peep from them the last two and a half years have you?

Do you think they've forgotten?

It's just another scar on Isreal's already butt uggly foreign relations face.

It also showed that Isreal was weak, unable to beat a poorly armed, underfunded foe.

Oh, and it showed that the people of Lebonon cared little about who had the biggest gun, the were more interested in getting water, power and having garbage taken away.

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Originally posted by otec LOL so now Israel goes same way as Russia in Georgia, and the US supports it. what a damn Christmas joke.

stop remembering things!!!

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I recognize that they were elected but as far as acting 'governmental' they are far from it. No other government in the real world would get away with what they do get away with. I don't know how else to describe them other than Israel's bad brother (I hope that made sense)...

Well put.

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Originally posted by Alex Is there ever going to be a solution to this mess? It's such a shame that countless civilians have to pay with their lives for this. 250+ dead now, and it will have solved NOTHING. For 4000 years the people of Israel have been fighting wars, it's truly sad that things there are in the same barbaric state they were in the days of the old testament.

Only once people realize that the land around Isreal isn't all that valuble.

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Originally posted by atbell And you are eating up the Israli bait like a fucking guppy by responding to what is clearly an irational outburst of pasionate, yet (sorry man) rather dull drivel. Can't you accept that some level of outrage is going to be the result of indescriminate airial attacks (or maybe barely descriminate would be a better term.) If Canada were to launch 200 rockets into Detroit I would expect, and even support a US response. Here is where I am going to start ripping on the US populus though. What is clear from your post is that you are ignorant of your suroundings. You should have realized that when you confused your geographic subdivisions. Isn't it extremely clear that Canada is a country where as Detroit is a city? Do you even see how massive a problem that is? Windsor is the city opposite Detroit, it's a rather substantial city by any measure, European, American, but probably not Asian. So then the first problem becomes apparent. If you were in charge of the country Vancouver might have been leveled for the attacks of some six people in Windsor. That would be like dropping Napalm on Seatle in response to what a bunch of people in New York did, or invading Iraq after an attack on new york by Saudi nationals trained in Afganistan ... why do I bother? And then there is the issue of 'the right to hit back as nessesary'. The majority of the world complains not about the fact that Isreal responds to the aggresion of a minority but that the country responds BEYOND what is nessesary. Getting back to the example of rockets in Detroit, the type of response that the Israli army has made a 'normal' response would be the same as destroying swaths of Toronto for attacks of a minority in Windsor (Windsor is some 4 hours or more away from Toronto, I've never even been to Windsor yet I live in Toronto, the cities are not all that closely tied together.) The problem is that Hamas is an organization, Gaza is a territory. War isn't war any more, no longer do nation states 'go to war'. Instead discontent people attack authorities, a minority of people. There is no way that the peaceful people in Gaza stand a chance of establishing any kind of authority that would be capable of disarming the militant minority if Isreal keeps destroying the infrastructure of the region and creating legions of new angry men with nothing to loose. Give these people something to live for and they will be less willing to martch to war.

First, I'm not an Israel sympathizer... I just think in this case, Hamas is asking for what they get. They knew eventually this would happen if they stayed their course, but they aren't getting the response they hoped from other countries. Hamas is an organization that has control of the territory of Gaza... Hamas doesn't give a fuck about them (innocent Gaza residents) either, as they are using them as pawns in their fucked up game of "everybody hate the Jews for what they're doing to the innocent." Hamas has the power to give those people something to live for but they have made it clear that isn't their priority as much as provoking a military power is.
Secondly, don't call me ignorant you piece of shit. I'm not aware of my surroundings? LOL! Detroit is a city, yeah... within the borders of the U.S. I could have picked any fucking town or city I wanted, I just happened to pick Detroit because it's close to Canada, to make the point that when a country's soverign borders are breached with rockets from a place outside those borders, all hell can and should be expected to break loose. Talk about missing the point.

Anyway, why don't you blame Hamas at all for bringing this on themselves? They broke the cease fire agreement and launched... they knew what would happen.

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Originally posted by atbell This: and this: Are not mutually exclusive sentiments.

they are if you're simply a student of recent history.

you think the blockade pre-dates Hamas agression? news flash atbell, NO! it doesn't. try again.

all you have to do is go back 18 months to the summer 2007 when Hamas violently took over the Strip.

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The enormously disproportionate response of Isreal has nothing to do with the disgusting lack of potlitical support for Palistine from leaders (not people) of other countries who claim to be allied to Palistine.

i completely agree. so do these guys...

here's Abu Mazen:

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"Palestinians could have avoided the Gaza massacre."

adding further

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"We spoke to them and told them 'Please, we ask you not to end the cease-fire. Let it continue,'"

Egyptian Foreign Minister, Aboul Gheit:

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We are waiting for the wounded Palestinians to reach Egypt. They aren't being allowed to go through

when asked why,

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"Ask the party that controls Gaza."

Egyptian Intelligence Chief Omar Suleiman:

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"Meshal's gang" - a reference to the Damascus-based head of Hamas' political bureau, Khaled Meshal - of behaving arrogantly toward Egypt, and added that there was no choice but "to educate the Hamas leadership - even in Damascus."

Mohammad Abdallah Al Zulfa, member of the Saudi Shoura Council:

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"Iran is the big threat in today's world, supporting all the terrorists from Hamas to Hezbollah to some other terrorists that we don't know their names yet. Iran destabilized the region by supporting all the illegal activities and activists such as Hamas."

it's pretty clear now, almost 48hrs after hostilities, from the reaction of leaders who have historically chided Israel for aggression have almost completely turned against Hamas. good. Hamas is a criminal, terrorist, blight on Palestinian autonomy and pride, organization aided and abbetted by the Islamic Republic of Iran.

there is no peace in the ME with Hamas in control of Palestinians. it's fairly clear to anybody paying attention and we'll get more and more clarity as the days go on.

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Now it is in the political leaders court to be able to respond apropriately.

i think they have, and so far it's good. down with Hamas.

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Economic santions on Isreal anyone?

doubt it.

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Originally posted by atbell I tend to think not having 'a dog in this fight' actually makes what he has to say more relevant, not less.

ok, but no one over there cares about you and what you think is relevant if you're just going to be some objective "unattached third party" quipping existential nonsense about who's worthless and who isn't.


in order for peace to be relevant you gotta have a dog, sorry.

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Originally posted by ******** premeditated? preemptive planning - reason for keeping journalists out last month?

of course it was premeditated, what's your point?

...and this sure as shit wasn't pre-emptive.