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the one and only Matrix Reloaded plot discussion thread (pg. 3)
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| [N]ûk|êû[Z] |
| the oracle IS the mother, the architect designed the matrix but he failed each time in the sense that people in the matrix didnt understand the concept of choice, the oracle is a program designed to sort of let people know that they have a choice, and she made it better and indeed what it is on the matrix 6.0. i think thats what the architect is saying, cos she helped push it onto the next level, so to speak |
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| ampburner |
but what about that part of the dialogue I highlighted. when Neo asks if the 'mother' is the oracle, he answers 'please...' as in please don't waste my time son, you have a lot to learn, right? or am I reading it wrong? the way I read it is that the architect denies the claim that the oracle would be the mother...
I'd have to watch the film again to be sure though, I didn't pay any particular attention to the intonation of his voice when he said it... reading the excerpt leaves it a bit ambiguous... |
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| ampburner |
| quote: | Originally posted by kr00t0n
Why Zion is rebuilt:
To ensure that the machines can still have their power source, and to restart yet another debugging run. This cycle will come to an end when the code is good enough to release Matrix Professional Edition. (or something to that effect :p)
I did have more ideas, but I'm a little tired now to remember them all, but that was the gist of it. |
Matrix XP :p |
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| kr00t0n |
| quote: | Originally posted by ampburner
Matrix XP :p |
HAHAHAHA, and then they'll still need to release Service Pack 1 :p |
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| MaRt |
| quote: | Originally posted by ampburner
but what about that part of the dialogue I highlighted. when Neo asks if the 'mother' is the oracle, he answers 'please...' as in please don't waste my time son, you have a lot to learn, right? or am I reading it wrong? the way I read it is that the architect denies the claim that the oracle would be the mother...
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Allegedly Persephone is to play a major role in Revolutions, so it wouldn't surprise me (or any of my mates, for that matter) if she turned out to be the intuitive program that created the Matrix. Given the Architect's response to Neo's question it's unlikely that it was the Oracle. |
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| whitesmoke |
| quote: | Originally posted by ampburner
but what about that part of the dialogue I highlighted. when Neo asks if the 'mother' is the oracle, he answers 'please...' as in please don't waste my time son, you have a lot to learn, right? or am I reading it wrong? the way I read it is that the architect denies the claim that the oracle would be the mother...
I'd have to watch the film again to be sure though, I didn't pay any particular attention to the intonation of his voice when he said it... reading the excerpt leaves it a bit ambiguous... |
The architect says that the mother of the matrix was put into place to understand and study the human psyche. do we ever see the oacle doing this? we only ever see her intercting with neo (although we know of her interacting with trinity and morpheus).
about the oracle...she does not really see the future. it is more that she just knows what is going to happen b/c she has seen it all happen 5 times before. however, why is she still around if she is not the mother? how has she survived the past destruction of the matricies and still known what happened in them? for that matter how does anyone in the matrix (ie mergovian) remember about what happened in the past matrices? if the matrix is destroyed, does the architect keep certian programs alive or are they all deleted? if they are all restarted then people ike the oracle and mergovian (speelling)have to be outside the matrix in someway so that they can leave the martix when it is destroyed and come back when it is rebuilt. if they are outside the matrix then were are they? in zion (probably a stretch but i am just writing in stream on conscious right now)
back to the oracle predicting the future...she lets them know the path to take based on their previous actions. is she just helping the architect recycle the system by leading neo on the path that he has already taken. and what about in the first matrix? how did she know what to say to neo then?
another interesting thing to think about it the possibility of someone being higher than the architect. Since the architect's purpose is to build a world in which he enslaves humans he seems to me as more of a devil and not a god figrue. if he is the devil then is there a god figure? is there someone he is struggling against?
i realize that there are contradticting points above but i am just statign a bunch of things that might help all you come to some conclusions or other realizations b/c that is what i am trying to do myslef. lots of things need to be answered in the next movie. |
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| ampburner |
| quote: | Originally posted by whitesmoke
The architect says that the mother of the matrix was put into place to understand and study the human psyche. do we ever see the oacle doing this? we only ever see her intercting with neo (although we know of her interacting with trinity and morpheus). |
exactly, another reason why I don't think she is the mother.
I think that leaves two possibilities: 1. Persephone, and 2. Trinity.
I'd never even considered persephone until I read the posts above, and now that I think of it, it would make sense. She is a program for sure (though you can never be sure ;) ) and of all the 'programs' in the film she has the most affinity to human emotions (craving for a touch, a kiss, ETC ;) ) which could be explained by her being a program designed to investigate human nature.
2nd possibility I would think of is trinity, but this could only be true if the desert of the real (zion) is another matrix on top of the level of the obvious matrix. Assuming (and I have to stress I'm only assuming this for the purpose of speculation) that zion is also a virtual world, that holds human minds aswell as computer programs.... would trininty not be THE ultimate program to research the emotions of human beings, and neo in particular? I mean, she's even... you know ;)
but that's probably a bit too far fetched :D
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about the oracle...she does not really see the future. it is more that she just knows what is going to happen b/c she has seen it all happen 5 times before. however, why is she still around if she is not the mother? how has she survived the past destruction of the matricies and still known what happened in them? for that matter how does anyone in the matrix (ie mergovian) remember about what happened in the past matrices? if the matrix is destroyed, does the architect keep certian programs alive or are they all deleted? if they are all restarted then people ike the oracle and mergovian (speelling)have to be outside the matrix in someway so that they can leave the martix when it is destroyed and come back when it is rebuilt. if they are outside the matrix then were are they? in zion (probably a stretch but i am just writing in stream on conscious right now) |
Easy. if you think of the matrix as an Operating system, think logically... what would you do if you were to upgrade from W98 to XP and wanted to keep all your previous files (knowledge, experience, history, files, call it what you will.)
The answer: you back them up! same goes for the oracle and the merovingian. they're not placed outside of the matrix physically (in zion?), but they are outside of it, virtually. on a hard drive, or burnt CD-rom ;)
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back to the oracle predicting the future...she lets them know the path to take based on their previous actions. is she just helping the architect recycle the system by leading neo on the path that he has already taken. and what about in the first matrix? how did she know what to say to neo then? |
another easy one... it was an educated guess. she told neo what she thought would lead him to his 'destiny' (=purpose). She may have been wrong, or less than 100% correct, but that is no problem. If you've ever written a program, you will know that one of the basic principles of programming is trial and error, or simply put... better luck next time. The oracle did not need to know exactly what she had to say, she just had to say something logical, which would not turn out perfectly, and afterwards learn from her mistakes so she could do better next time (next version)
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another interesting thing to think about it the possibility of someone being higher than the architect. Since the architect's purpose is to build a world in which he enslaves humans he seems to me as more of a devil and not a god figrue. if he is the devil then is there a god figure? is there someone he is struggling against? |
interesting, isn't it. I see you read the corporate mofo article aswell? http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm
let's see what he has to say about this...
"Considering that The Architect built the Matrix, you might think that he's God. Of course, he's nothing of the sort. In Gnostic theology, it is Satan, not God, who has created the world in order to imprison humanity. It is also the Architect who is unleashing the Sentinels to destroy Zion; that is, beginning the Battle of Armageddon. It is my prediction that in the third and final film, it will be revealed that there is a power behind the Architect, and that he is the one who sent the One into the Matrix. It is also my prediction that this guy will look a lot like Neo."
very interesting... neo (jesus figure) and 'god' being the same person (father,son, and the holy spirit)....
DAMN I want to see revolutions :D
| quote: | | i realize that there are contradticting points above but i am just statign a bunch of things that might help all you come to some conclusions or other realizations b/c that is what i am trying to do myslef. lots of things need to be answered in the next movie. |
hehe, no worries, same goes for any of us. My trinity/mother theory is probably a crock of too! :D |
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| FrosT |
| quote: | Originally posted by whitesmoke
however, why is she still around if she is not the mother? how has she survived the past destruction of the matricies and still known what happened in them? for that matter how does anyone in the matrix (ie mergovian) remember about what happened in the past matrices? if the matrix is destroyed, does the architect keep certian programs alive or are they all deleted? if they are all restarted then people ike the oracle and mergovian (speelling)have to be outside the matrix in someway so that they can leave the martix when it is destroyed and come back when it is rebuilt. if they are outside the matrix then were are they? in zion (probably a stretch but i am just writing in stream on conscious right now) |
The matrix obviously isn't destroyed or there would be nobody left. The system needs to be restarted. All the programs and things stick around just like when you restart your PC. Zion is what needs to be rebuilt after the machines dig into it and slaughter everone (assumtion) All the programs including smith stick around after its restarted to carry out their jobs just as they did before, retaining any memory they had previously. Much like the positions of your icons on the desktop or playlist in winamp, it comes right back to how it was even after you restart. Becuase knowlege is data/code when your in the matrix anyone connected would just have their memories erased (Which seems to be possable considering cyphers deal with the agents in the first one)and wake up X(X being the time between one anomally to the next) amount of years prior and not be any wiser.
In addition when the architect says please, he could also be infering that she is not an oracle. Like please as if she can predict the future, or like calling her an oracle is laughable.
Even if she is not the mother what does that have to do with anything?
In addition I find it funny how these programs assign themselves a sex. |
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| Galapidate |
| quote: | Originally posted by FrosT
The matrix obviously isn't destroyed or there would be nobody left. The system needs to be restarted. All the programs and things stick around just like when you restart your PC. Zion is what needs to be rebuilt after the machines dig into it and slaughter everone (assumtion) All the programs including smith stick around after its restarted to carry out their jobs just as they did before, retaining any memory they had previously. |
Remember the architect said that if the matrix was destroyed, they would salvage 23 people - 16 female 7 male, to start the next matrix. |
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| FrosT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Galapidate
Remember the architect said that if the matrix was destroyed, they would salvage 23 people - 16 female 7 male, to start the next matrix. |
Thats incorrect. Thats to rebuild zion not the matrix.
"select 23 individuals from the matrix to rebuild zion" |
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| Galapidate |
| oh whoops my bad |
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| Galapidate |
| edit: double post (my PC is suckin ass today) |
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