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European officials: "we are anti-semetic" (pg. 4)
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
The mistake comes in your observation that terrorist attacks are a bargaining chip. It isn't, the Israeli policy, is give up this card, and we will look at your others, don't give it up, and we don't care what else you have in your deck. The Israelis carry a loaded hand, but they aren't even going to look at the Palestinian hand untilt hey give up this one card. |
Just out of curiosity: What other cards can Palestineans possibly hold?
DigiNut: Calling my views either "very ignorant and misinformed" or "anti-semitic", is IMO an ad-hominem attack, and not a serious/constructive response. Of course, you may define ad-hominem attacks somewhat narrower (as in name-calling, exemplified by ahlamalek) in which case Yoepus' post indeed didn't include any. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Just out of curiosity: What other cards can Palestineans possibly hold? |
They hold many cards, other forms of violence, and non-violence. Claims they make, international support, pan-Arab backing and influence, security, water, territorial, birth-control, education, media, and even economic power. Come on, I thought you Europeans were champions in recongizing "soft power".
| quote: |
DigiNut: Calling my views either "very ignorant and misinformed" or "anti-semitic", is IMO an ad-hominem attack, and not a serious/constructive response. |
Well if you honestly think that it is "zionist" propoganda that brings the Israel-Palestinian debate to the forefronts of the world media, I believe that is an ignorant or misinformed viewpoint, borderlining antisemitic (it alludes to the Jews control the media antisemitic myth). It's not an attack on you, it just means I disagree with your viewpoint believing it to be ridicilous.
The difference is I'm calling your views, not you ignorant or misinformed. Plus I offered critisim as to why those views are misinformed prior to ridicule.
;) :p :thepirate |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
On another totally unrelated note, I've been hearing on and off about "Real-politik" but I'm still not sure exactly what it is, does anyone have any links/books I could follow? |
I suppose nowadays it's used to describe anything Machiavellian in nature ... particularly with foreign policy. I think it was first historically coined to describe the policies implemented by Bismarck.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
I suppose nowadays it's used to describe anything Machiavellian in nature ... particularly with foreign policy. I think it was first historically coined to describe the policies implemented by Bismarck.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik |
Yea, reading the above, I guess The Prince would then be a good start. hehe
You can also read anyone of Henry Kissenger's books on the topic.:) |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Well if you honestly think that it is "zionist" propoganda that brings the Israel-Palestinian debate to the forefronts of the world media, I believe that is an ignorant or misinformed viewpoint, borderlining antisemitic (it alludes to the Jews control the media antisemitic myth). It's not an attack on you, it just means I disagree with your viewpoint believing it to be ridicilous.
The difference is I'm calling your views, not you ignorant or misinformed. Plus I offered critisim as to why those views are misinformed prior to ridicule.
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Well, as a view really cannot be neither stupid nor brilliant, I assumed that you meant the views stemmed from ignorance or misinformation - in effect calling me ignorant. Furthermore, you ascribe views to me that I do not have:
I wrote that Zionists brings up the topic of Israel again and again, and from this you conclude that I believe that Jews as a group control the world media. There's nothing special about an interest group raising pet topics in the public debate - it happens all the time. It does not take extreme amounts of powerful people to bring something to the attention of the media - it only takes a band of zealots with nothing better to do than writing letters to the editor or spamming web-boards and newsgroups. Moreover, (at least part of) the Zionist interest group makes no attempt to excuse or hide their activity on this front. So I cannot really see how my views, in any way, can be interpreted as ignorant or anti-semitic.
I do start to tire of being called a anti-semite (=> racist) everytime I try to post in the Israel vs. Palestine threads (and eventhough my posts are extremely close to being neutral), though, and I do not like when I as a European am naturally classified as anti-semite. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Well, as a view really cannot be neither stupid nor brilliant, I assumed that you meant the views stemmed from ignorance or misinformation - in effect calling me ignorant. Furthermore, you ascribe views to me that I do not have:
I wrote that Zionists brings up the topic of Israel again and again, and from this you conclude that I believe that Jews as a group control the world media. There's nothing special about an interest group raising pet topics in the public debate - it happens all the time. It does not take extreme amounts of powerful people to bring something to the attention of the media - it only takes a band of zealots with nothing better to do than writing letters to the editor or spamming web-boards and newsgroups. Moreover, (at least part of) the Zionist interest group makes no attempt to excuse or hide their activity on this front. So I cannot really see how my views, in any way, can be interpreted as ignorant or anti-semitic.
I do start to tire of being called a anti-semite (=> racist) everytime I try to post in the Israel vs. Palestine threads (and eventhough my posts are extremely close to being neutral), though, and I do not like when I as a European am naturally classified as anti-semite. |
I never personally called you an anti-semite, but I must say that your generalization of Zionists "spamming web-boards" is no more accurate than his generalization of you thinking that Jews control the world media. And in fact I seriously doubt Yoepus actually believes you think that - he was saying it for irony.
Trancaholic, stupid people abound, be they Zionist or ultra-Left. There is no basis for characterizing all Zionists by the actions of one of them (Mike). This board has been overflowing with Bush-bashing "spam", a great deal of it posted by one person who I will not name, and neither he nor any other Bush-bashers receive any criticism no matter how stupid their posts are. And yet they do almost the exact same things that Mike does. In fact they are worse - they post long irrelevant articles in threads that are TOTALLY unrelated to their little "mission." So why don't they get their asses kicked? Where's the logic here? |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
I never personally called you an anti-semite, but I must say that your generalization of Zionists "spamming web-boards" is no more accurate than his generalization of you thinking that Jews control the world media. And in fact I seriously doubt Yoepus actually believes you think that - he was saying it for irony.
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I know that you have not called me an anti-semite. Just as I haven't called you names.
One misunderstanding is finally becoming apparent to me: I did not mean to say that all Zionists spam web-boards or write letters to the editor about Israel (and, actually, I didn't write that neither), but rather that those who do are Zionists. That is, as far as I can see those who bring up the topic repeatedly tend to be Zionists. Whether this is because of a lack of community culture or writing skills on behalf of Palestineans I won't start speculating about. Just rest assured that everywhere in my posts where you have read an implicit "all", it should be a "some" or "those". If the fault lies with my formulation skills, then I regret this. If the fault lies with others for having a preconception along the lines of "anyone not unilateraly pro-Israel must be an anti-semite", then shame on them.
Even if I did say "all Zionists are propagandaists", that would IMO still be a rather different thing from saying "your perception of all Zionists being propagandaists entitles me to say that you believe in the Conspiracy of Jews theory and that you are an anti-semite". In the one thing it would be a generalization, in the other it is a specialization.
Whether Yoepus was using irony, only one man can tell us. But if so, it was really well hidden...or my communication skills have failed me (again?).
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Trancaholic, stupid people abound, be they Zionist or ultra-Left. There is no basis for characterizing all Zionists by the actions of one of them (Mike). This board has been overflowing with Bush-bashing "spam", a great deal of it posted by one person who I will not name, and neither he nor any other Bush-bashers receive any criticism no matter how stupid their posts are. And yet they do almost the exact same things that Mike does. In fact they are worse - they post long irrelevant articles in threads that are TOTALLY unrelated to their little "mission." So why don't they get their asses kicked? Where's the logic here? |
Once again, a misunderstanding has arisen: I do not advocate the banning of Mike for his spamming. Far from it - occasionally he brings up interesting articles. My point is simply that: When people like Mike keep bringing up the topic, then it *will* get more attention than that of China, Iran, etc. And then one shouldn't complain about it being discussed. If it hurts your feelings, tell Mike to stop bringing it up. |
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| Yoepus |
the misunderstanding I had was that I thought you believed Zionist the worldover brought Israel to the forefront of media outltes nations-over in some attempt to give it a better image. You seemed to phrase it as if every news report on Israel was a Zionist production:
| quote: |
trancaholic
My post was an attempt at answering why Israel is singled out - which, I repeat, is because of the constant flow of propaganda from Zionists. It keeps the spotlight on the region, and once attention is drawn to the conflict, and Israel isn't behaving distinguishably better than Palestineans, it should come as no surprise that criticism is raised.
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It is not however the "Jews" who are keeping the spotlight on Israel as implied, such a view I will reiteriate is borderline antisemitic. I raised the option that for the Jews to bring a spotlight on Israel is typically counterproductive, and their weight and power to do so is very slight. The true reasons for focus on this politics, are:
Geopolitics,
Philosophical debate,
Religious debate,
Arab influence,
Jewish influence
You see how putting "Jewish influence" on top of that list would be either ignorant, misinformed, or borderline antisemitic, right?
That's all I'm saying. However, you have made it clear in your other post afterwords thats not what you meant. To my understanding, you meant that simply a lot of people post here articles on Israel, and so shouldn't complain if people debate about it one way or the other, right?
On a final note, I'm not one the throw the term antisemite lightly like many of my collegues. I haven't termed you one and doubt you are, it however was one of your options.
What I find mysetrious though is how you got to the conclusion that "Israel isn't behaving distinguishably better than Palestineans"
:conf:
Funny, it might just be me, but I don't see Israelis blowing themselves up to take out as many Palestinians as they can just to win some media attention:rolleyes: |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Funny, it might just be me, but I don't see Israelis blowing themselves up to take out as many Palestinians as they can just to win some media attention:rolleyes: |
Dude, it's cool. They got their reasons. No worries. We don't have to question them, they're oppressed 'n, you can't blame them for all the murder-suicides. They's just keepin' it realz, yo? So y'all betta take it easy on those P-stines before I bust out the napalm on yo ass.
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Dude, it's cool. They got their reasons. No worries. We don't have to question them, they're oppressed 'n, you can't blame them for all the murder-suicides. They's just keepin' it realz, yo? So y'all betta take it easy on those P-stines before I bust out the napalm on yo ass.
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ahh right! how could I be so one-sided.
Me bad, G.;) |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus I raised the option that for the Jews to bring a spotlight on Israel is typically counterproductive, and their weight and power to do so is very slight.
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Accepting your argument that Israel is the stronger part as truth and applying reason, then yes - it is counterproductive.
However, not all Zionists share that view, apparently. My example was the Wiesenthal Center, and I have seen other organizations which do aim for bringing attention to the plight of Israel everywhere.
But maybe they're the zealots I'm talking about? (Rhetorical question, don't answer).
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
The true reasons for focus on this politics, are:
Geopolitics,
Philosophical debate,
Religious debate,
Arab influence,
Jewish influence
You see how putting "Jewish influence" on top of that list would be either ignorant, misinformed, or borderline antisemitic, right?
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Well, let's stick to "Zionist influence": I've been called a Zionist for refering to Jews in general as Zionists, in another thread, and don't like to repeat my mistakes.
But as to your list, I really see no reason to place one thing above the others (are you a racist for putting "Arab influence" above "Jewish influence" for example?). I especially do not see why philosophical nor religious debate should bring attention to the conflict, nor where this debate take place?
If by geopolitics you mean the Israel-EU relationship, and the less-than-clear politics by the Bush administration, then I agree that with you that it should be in the top spot.
If by "Arab influence" you mean "oil", then I would agree with you that it plays a large, although indirect, part.
With regards to media pressure groups I have yet to see Arab ones as efficient as the Zionist ones. Zealous Arabs seem to become terrorists instead.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
That's all I'm saying. However, you have made it clear in your other post afterwords thats not what you meant. To my understanding, you meant that simply a lot of people post here articles on Israel, and so shouldn't complain if people debate about it one way or the other, right?
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That was my point, yes.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
What I find mysetrious though is how you got to the conclusion that "Israel isn't behaving distinguishably better than Palestineans"
Funny, it might just be me, but I don't see Israelis blowing themselves up to take out as many Palestinians as they can just to win some media attention:rolleyes: |
No, Israelis do not in general. Israelis do take other peoples property, and do shoot/launch at unarmed Palestineans.
To me, the raids into Palestine and the settlements are not as bad as suicide terrorism, but when you see things in a broader perspective, then things even out: The Israeli terror is carried out by the government of Israel, which is a democratically elected government, and one elected by an educated people at that. The Palestinean terror is carried out by religiously brainwashed losers with no future ahead of them.
In other words, if my dog pees on the floor I do not judge it as harshly as I would had it been one of my friends. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
In other words, if my dog pees on the floor I do not judge it as harshly as I would had it been one of my friends. |
Hm, I like this analogy. Let's take it a step further - if your dog pees on the floor, what do you do about it?
Rub its nose in it? Oh well we can't do that, otherwise we are drawing unnecessary attention to the conflict and attracting criticism... and even though it has nothing to do with the dog peeing on the floor, someone is probably going to bring up the fact that we left the dog out in the cold for 5 minutes too long about 4 winters ago and the poor thing had chills when we let it back in.
Put it in its cage, then? That's what I used to do with my dog when she peed on the floor. Well, seems that someone's been trying to build a wall or something like that but that's been attracting a lot of negative comments too... so cages and walls aren't an option...
Alright, so it's not as simple as a dog peeing on the floor. It's kind of a war, really, albeit a "People's War." Nevertheless, what do you think would happen if Israel decided to say, it already, and militarily take over Palestine and obliterate all the hate groups? Yes, you guessed it - they'd be crucified instantly by the rest of the world; that is, if they were even able to carry out this action without some other country intervening on Palestine's behalf. Doing that would be cruel, it would be unfair, how dare they wage war with such superior firepower, we must level the playing field!
Politically, we're not exactly leaving them with many options here, and I think that's what everybody is failing to realize. The way I see it, the rest of the world would like to give them 2 options:
1) Do nothing, and let the terrorists keep blowing things up.
2) Give in to all the Palestinian demands, and potentially continue to let the terrorists keep blowing things up.
So when most of the civilized world seems to think that Israel should pick one option out of these two, it does sort of become necessary to try to present their case. The other option, of course, is to commit retaliatory acts and keep their severity just low enough to not provoke any other countries to intervene. And both of those two things would appear to be what Israel is doing. Under the current situation, they don't have much of a choice.
So subjecting them to higher standards than Palestine may not be anti-semitic - that depends on exactly what you define as anti-semitism and exactly how unequal the standards are - but regardless, it is certainly unfair. They have just as little choice as Palestine does in the military sense, if not less choice. It's also a mistake for you to say that Palestinian terror, unlike Israel's, is somehow not linked to the Palestinian state - unfortunately, it IS quite clearly linked, and we've seen hard evidence of those links. The organization in Palestine may be a lot looser and/or more subtle, but it is still state-sponsored.
The problem here, trancaholic, is that (at least from what I can see, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) you aren't making much of a distinction between people who are just stirring and people who are protesting misinformation. And there really is a ton of misinformation out there to protest, starting with the false idea that Palestinian terror is just a couple of whackos and not endorsed by the state itself. |
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