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Israel Kills Sheikh Yassin (Leader of Hamas) (pg. 12)
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | | Because Israel isn't committing terrorist acts to accomplish political objectives |
How can Israel not be seeking political objectives?!
| quote: | | If you can find me any indication that Israel is specifically targeting innocent Palestinian bystanders in order to intimidate Palestine, be my guest |
Jenin
| quote: | | You have a weird definition of Terrorism, George |
Whats yours? I think terrorism is the terrorising of civilians. Thats it. I also think the word 'terrorism' is used by certain groups to impose opinions onto us as 'terror' is merely a negative buzz word used by our ruling elites to get us on side. Whats the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist?
| quote: | | fact that the victims are "unarmed" means absolutely nothing |
Why? Did Hitler not commit terrorism against the Jews? Does it mean "absolutely nothing" that the Jews were unarmed?
| quote: | | Sorry, but Israel does NOT commit acts of terrorism |
Killing children is not terrorism?! Explain please...
| quote: | | As for you calling them "civilians", I believe the issue has finally come to light that this is not a very accurate way of depicting the conflict, since military service is mandatory in Israel and Palestine doesn't have a military at all, therefore any given Palestinian is far more likely to be considered a "civilian" than any given Israeli |
I am not sure who exactly you think I am calling 'civilians' but it is certainly not Palestinian militants as you are trying to make out. I mean women, children or anyone else who has had their lives ended premeturely by an apache, an airstrike (an airstrike for s sake) or being picked off by the IDF who have had no part in any militant activity.
Why is it not ok in your mind to kill an Israeli child, yet you go out of your way to defend the murder of a Palestinian child? Both are innocent. Niether deserve their fate. Yet while you feel outrage at the murder of an innocent Israeli child, you appease the actions of the state of Israel when it commits exactly the same crime...
Please explain because from here you sound either like one hell of a hypocrite, a total idiot, or maybe there is some other agenda you are trying to promote here? |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
How can Israel not be seeking political objectives?! |
First of all, I didn't say that they don't have political objectives, I said that they aren't committing acts of terrorism to accomplish them.
Besides which, what "objectives" are you referring to? Wanting to stay where they are without being terrorized by a neighbouring state? :rolleyes:
Elaborate? :conf:
| quote: | | Whats yours? I think terrorism is the terrorising of civilians. Thats it. I also think the word 'terrorism' is used by certain groups to impose opinions onto us as 'terror' is merely a negative buzz word used by our ruling elites to get us on side. Whats the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist? |
Quite clearly you didn't bother to read my response to you a few posts up. Read it. Israel's methods do not correspond with those of terrorists - they are conducting almost all of their operations in a military sense, none of what they do is designed to intimidate or coerce. The biggest irony is that you're bitching about all this in a thread which is essentially about a hairline operation that took out no Palestinian civilians whatsoever, just a well-known terrorist leader.
| quote: | | Why? Did Hitler not commit terrorism against the Jews? Does it mean "absolutely nothing" that the Jews were unarmed? |
I'd call that genocide, not terrorism. And for 's sake, I'm getting a little sick of people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Are you really that short-sighted?
| quote: | | Killing children is not terrorism?! Explain please... |
When those children are carrying bombs? Or when they're caught in the crossfire of someone else who attacked a soldier? Come on now, it's not like Israeli soldiers waltz into Palestine and shoot innocent children. Palestine has killed more Palestinian children than Israel has, even forgetting about the Israeli children.
You think "children" cannot be considered combatants? I think the growing number of reports of child suicide bombers might clash with that.
| quote: | | I am not sure who exactly you think I am calling 'civilians' but it is certainly not Palestinian militants as you are trying to make out. I mean women, children or anyone else who has had their lives ended premeturely by an apache, an airstrike (an airstrike for s sake) or being picked off by the IDF who have had no part in any militant activity. |
Occrider posted the article on this earlier. Unfortunately when you read the reports, "militant" or "civilian" doesn't really tell the whole story. You're using your own definition of "civilian", but you're relying on someone else's definition to come up with your figures - that was the whole point of the article he posted, to differentiate between civilians (non-militants) and non-combatants (who were actually not involved in any fighting).
| quote: | | Why is it not ok in your mind to kill an Israeli child, yet you go out of your way to defend the murder of a Palestinian child? Both are innocent. Niether deserve their fate. Yet while you feel outrage at the murder of an innocent Israeli child, you appease the actions of the state of Israel when it commits exactly the same crime... |
Sigh. How many times do I have to say that it's because those Palestinian children ARE NOT innocent. Neither are SOME of the Israeli children, I agree, but the ratio of dead Israeli children who were innocent bystanders to dead Palestinian children who were innocent bystanders is quite high. Israelis are not intentionally murdering children to accomplish a political objective - Palestinians are.
It is not "exactly the same crime", and people in this forum have been over this same issue a hundred times with you already. You merely look at the moment of death, and not the surrounding circumstances, which again, can only be called totally short-sighted. Every death in the world is not equal, and neither is every killing. They may all be the loss of a human life, but it's absolutely ridiculous to imply that Israel is conducting motivated first-degree murder of Palestinian children to scare them like Palestine is doing to Israel. That doesn't mean to imply that an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian life, but it does mean that the Palestinians doing the kill are not in immediate danger, whereas the Israelis doing the killing often ARE.
| quote: | | Please explain because from here you sound either like one hell of a hypocrite, a total idiot, or maybe there is some other agenda you are trying to promote here? |
Same to you. |
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| TranceGiant |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
How can Israel not be seeking political objectives?!
Jenin
Whats yours? I think terrorism is the terrorising of civilians. Thats it. I also think the word 'terrorism' is used by certain groups to impose opinions onto us as 'terror' is merely a negative buzz word used by our ruling elites to get us on side. Whats the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist?
Why? Did Hitler not commit terrorism against the Jews? Does it mean "absolutely nothing" that the Jews were unarmed?
Killing children is not terrorism?! Explain please...
I am not sure who exactly you think I am calling 'civilians' but it is certainly not Palestinian militants as you are trying to make out. I mean women, children or anyone else who has had their lives ended premeturely by an apache, an airstrike (an airstrike for s sake) or being picked off by the IDF who have had no part in any militant activity.
Why is it not ok in your mind to kill an Israeli child, yet you go out of your way to defend the murder of a Palestinian child? Both are innocent. Niether deserve their fate. Yet while you feel outrage at the murder of an innocent Israeli child, you appease the actions of the state of Israel when it commits exactly the same crime...
Please explain because from here you sound either like one hell of a hypocrite, a total idiot, or maybe there is some other agenda you are trying to promote here? |
LOL you're so full of , forgive me.
Jenin? Even the PA that started the "massacre" myth itself later denied that there was a systematic killing of civilians! A UN commission that investigated reached the same conclusion. There was a massive battle going on between Palestinian militans (of which around 20 were killed) and Israelis soldiers (13 dead). Since the militants decided to draw the fighting to populated area collateral damage was inevitable yet kept to a minimum. I think some 3 or 4 civilians were killd as a result. How's that "the unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons"(dictionary.com) ?
I'll tell you what the difference between "Freedom Fighter" and Terrorist is. Freedom Fighters will have probably tried any diplomatic path before choosing violence as a means to reach their political goals. They might also use Civil Disobedience to demonstrate their claims. They'd even take the violent approach provided that it was aimed at military targets only, always keeping in mind that it'd be a temporary startegy (creating pressure on the opposite side) and that eventually a compromise would have to be reached. Terrorism on the other hand is looking for maximal destruction. Mass killings of civilians ************ of political developemtns, or even aimed against them (See Hamas bombings during the years of the Oslo peace process). Terrorism knows no politics, it grows on a perverted ideology that only uses politics as legitimation and mask behind which the sheer hatred and racism is hidden. I kill, therefore I am. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
I'll tell you what the difference between "Freedom Fighter" and Terrorist is. Freedom Fighters will have probably tried any diplomatic path before choosing violence as a means to reach their political goals. They might also use Civil Disobedience to demonstrate their claims. They'd even take the violent approach provided that it was aimed at military targets only, always keeping in mind that it'd be a temporary startegy (creating pressure on the opposite side) and that eventually a compromise would have to be reached. Terrorism on the other hand is looking for maximal destruction. Mass killings of civilians ************ of political developemtns, or even aimed against them (See Hamas bombings during the years of the Oslo peace process). Terrorism knows no politics, it grows on a perverted ideology that only uses politics as legitimation and mask behind which the sheer hatred and racism is hidden. I kill, therefore I am. |
Actually, most of the time the difference between terrorist and freedom fighter is who wins. ;) |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | | the ratio of dead Israeli children who were innocent bystanders to dead Palestinian children who were innocent bystanders is quite high |
Got a link for that?
| quote: | | I'd call that genocide, not terrorism |
Genocide is not terrorism?!
| quote: | | And for 's sake, I'm getting a little sick of people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany |
Dont recall ever comparing the actions of the state of Israel to those of Nazi Germany?
| quote: | | methods do not correspond with those of terrorists - they are conducting almost all of their operations in a military sense, none of what they do is designed to intimidate or coerce |
So the bulldozing down of Palestinian houses does not lead to cohercement? Or the curfews and blockades? How about the confiscation of Palestinian land to construct the illegal fence? How the can you justify any of that? It is called appeasement...
You are a hypocrite. You criticise one group for acts of violence and terror towards innocents, yet defend the same actions by another group. I can only assume that you only define terrorism to mean acts carried out only by non-state actors, as your views on Nazi Germany suggest.
You appease the terrorist acts of the State of Israel, you are a hypocrite (and to prove that you are not, explain how the demolition of civillian houses are not considered acts of terrorism)
I am starting to warm to your views on appeasement as it is clear that the more Israel has been appeased (by its sponsor the US) the more it feels it can get away with any act of terrorism it pleases... |
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| Yoepus |
hehe Georegy, ever the comic;) :p
The world appeases Israel, thats clever.
So when the US cuts funding to Israel beacuse it builts a fence that it doesn't agree with, thats appeasement?
When Israel launched its operation, "defensive shield", and European nations put on military sanctions, thats appeasement?
Nope its not.
Appeasement isn't neutrality (i.e.i the US not caring what Israel does). No, appeasement would be the US or Europe paying Israel in some fashion or another to stop its attacks against the Palestinians. I haven't seen them do that yet, if anything they have only taken funding away.
As for terrorism, you know its definition and meaning quiet clealry, though you wish to blur it. If I drive over a kid that ran into the street right infront of my car and kill him, I am not a terrorist. No one would argue it here. But you seem to think I would be, because I killed an innocent civilian, which is your definition of hte word terror:rolleyes:
I wonder why more people haven't adopted your definiton:conf: :stongue: |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
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Yes, that all made sense... except for the fact that it didn't.
Link here - I take no credit for this, it was posted by another - and don't start with the biased-source crap unless you've got logic to back it up. |
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| Palestinian |
The Occupation is terrorism. Israel demolishes homes of Palestinians.
Since 1967 Israel has used Caterpillar bulldozers to demolish nearly 9,000 Palestinian homes, leaving more than 50,000 people homeless. Since the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising in September 2000, Israel has razed the homes of 12,737 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In the past two years the Israeli army deployed Caterpillar bulldozers to uproot 200,000 Palestinian olive trees. In April 2002 Caterpillar D9s demolished an entire neighborhood in the Jenin refugee camp. This is terrorism.
Israeli soldiers TARGET CIVILIANS. Get that through your heads. I have repeatedly provided documented evidence of this fact. They intentionaly target civilians. Israel's policy in Gaza and the West Bank TARGETS CIVILIANS. There is numerous evidence out there. |
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| Palestinian |
The MAIN PROBLEM is that zionists cannot accept the fact that a trained military indiscriminately shoots at innocent civilians. YES, ISRAEL WALTS INTO PALESTINIAN LAND AND SHOOTS AT INNOCENT CHILDREN. YES.
Your brain can never accept that fact. This is the main issue here. This is the problem. End of goddam story. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
The MAIN PROBLEM is that zionists cannot accept the fact that a trained military indiscriminately shoots at innocent civilians. YES, ISRAEL WALTS INTO PALESTINIAN LAND AND SHOOTS AT INNOCENT CHILDREN. YES.
Your brain can never accept that fact. This is the main issue here. This is the problem. End of goddam story. |
its true, because we don't think its a fact. Our brain can't accept this myth. Reference link Diginut posted above... the numbers just don't add up to your statement. If Israel was targeting civilians in the manner you describe, Palestinian civilian fatalities should be 10-1 against combatants. |
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| DigiNut |
Apparently, Israel shoots at 1 terrorist leader and his 2 bodyguards, not thousands of innocent civilians.
Maybe the media is lying to us? :conf: Is Yassin still alive? |
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| Palestinian |
Israel won't kill thousands of innocent civilians all at once. In the words of the founder of Zionism, Theodore Herzl "Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
Slow transfer is the goal.
The current thesis of Zionism and the Likud government is this:
Make life for Palestinians ultimately unbearable until they leave by voluntary transfer. Place them into ghettos and isolated areas so that we can maintain control over them. This is the only solution for the long term security, survival, and expansion of the Jewish state.
I will say it again: Israel targets civilians. Stop denying it. Do your research. They target civilians and that's that. |
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