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New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel! (pg. 2)
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| drgoodvibe |
| quote: | Originally posted by d!abolic
Thing is that there is little Israel can do to piss them off any more than they already are. Like you said, they're already willing to die for their cause, and will continue to do so regardless of what Israel does. So the only option they have left is killing them off one by one. It's either that or sitting and waiting to be killed off themselves, which isn't really an option. I mean really, what would YOU do? Israel does nothing; Palestinians kill. Israel tries to negotiate; Palestinians kill. Israel kills; Palestinians kill. Israel's ONLY option is to kill in return. This is very rarely the case in these situations, but when your enemy's only goal is your death, you're all out of options. The terrorists already said they wouldn't stop their attacks even if Israel moved out of Palestinian territory. They want Israel destroyed, and they want Israeli territory to be theirs. Period. |
If we go by exactly what you say, then the only way this "war" can end is the systemic eradication of Palestinians or their total subjugation(sp?) and or displacement to some other barren wasteland that is the Middle East. When does the cyle of murder end?
If Israel realy wants an end to this "war" and wants to have a complete drawback of troops in Gaza and other Palestinian territories, then why has it gotten backing from the U.S to keep the illegal (yes they are illegal)settlements on Palestinian territory?
I find it interesting, people believe that the Palestinians will not stop trying to murder the Israelies once they have their land back. They think that the Palestinians will only try to grab more and more and start the whole cyle again. However, isnt this the very scenario that we haven't really tried yet? |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by d!abolic
What's the deal with him? |
are you serious?if you only knew the things he has done in his life,he has broken many UN laws for one,and murderd many innocent people. |
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| DigiNut |
I try to save most of this debate for the poli forum, but before we get out of hand with rhetoric here...
| quote: | Originally posted by drgoodvibe
If we go by exactly what you say, then the only way this "war" can end is the systemic eradication of Palestinians or their total subjugation(sp?) and or displacement to some other barren wasteland that is the Middle East. When does the cyle of murder end? |
What exactly is your basis for coming to this conclusion? The assassination of a Hamas figurehead who actually physically armed many of the suicide bombers is hardly a precursor to the kind of ethnic cleansing you're implying here.
| quote: | | If Israel realy wants an end to this "war" and wants to have a complete drawback of troops in Gaza and other Palestinian territories, then why has it gotten backing from the U.S to keep the illegal (yes they are illegal)settlements on Palestinian territory? |
I'm assuming you're referring to UN resolution 242, in which case the unilateral declaration of the Israel settlements as "illegal" is at best a half-truth.
- First of all, it states "withdrawal from occupied territories" - it does not say all territories, or even which territories. The resolution is so vague that it cannot be applied in any concrete form whatsoever, and indeed it is purposefully vague because of an intent to indicate that the two sides needed to "work it out."
- The resolution is a dual resolution that also requires "termination of all claims or states of belligerency", which Arafat unequivocally refused in the 3rd round of the Camp David peace talks mediated by Bill Clinton in 2000 (I am specifically referring to the talks in which Israel offered to renounce 97% of their occupied land, and Clinton stormed out after Arafat insulted the Jewish religion in response, which was well documented by both Israeli and Palestinian negotiators).
| quote: | | I find it interesting, people believe that the Palestinians will not stop trying to murder the Israelies once they have their land back. They think that the Palestinians will only try to grab more and more and start the whole cyle again. However, isnt this the very scenario that we haven't really tried yet? |
There is a reason people believe this, and it is because Arafat consistently and without fail used each and every peace offer as merely a starting point for making further demands. Many Palestinian authorities openly talked of the "phased plan", it is no secret to anyone in Israel OR Palestine. People love to use the "Ostrich Argument" on this issue and completely ignore the fact that this was a very public policy, as specifically stated by Arafat:
| quote: | "Within five years we will have 6 to 7 million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem....We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. Jews will not want to live among Arabs. I have no use for Jews....We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem."
- Yassir Arafat, Stockholm, 30 January, 1996 |
And of course Hamas:
| quote: | | Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. |
I find it ironic that you would condemn the elimination one of the foremost supporters of a movement with this stated goal as an act of "subjugation."
I'll make my stance perfectly clear here, I don't agree with all of Israel's policies - but many here, in this forum especially, pick out the most legitimate actions and policies and condemn them instantly. Every day the Israelis are in there causing injury and destruction or just generally widespread panic - some of which is warranted, and some is not. But when they pick off a single military target that's personally responsible for over a hundred suicide bombings, you cry out in grief.
I feel pity for the Palestinians because they are the victims of two states - Israel and Palestine. Like many other middle-eastern countries, they have to suffer under the oppression of a dictator who [we can only hope] does not represent them, funnels away money to himself and hate groups such as Hamas, and "educates" his country in such a manner:
| quote: | “There is no alternative to destroying Jerusalem.”
- Banner on title page of Volume I, “Our Country Palestine” |
| quote: | “there will be a Jihad and our country shall be freed. This is our story with the thieving conquerors. You must know, my boy, that Palestine is your grave responsibility.”
- Our Arabic Language, textbook for Fifth Grade |
| quote: | “Martyred Jihad fighters are the most honored people, after the Prophets”
- Reading And Literary Texts for Tenth Grade |
I really hate to be so brutal as to bring these things up, but I'm constantly amazed at how some people in this forum turn a blind eye to the seriousness of the situation in order to push off platitudes about how Israel should just "give it a shot." They gave it a shot in 1949 at the Armistice following the mass expulsion of 1948, and were met with the formation of the PLO and its National Charter calling explicitly for the liquidation of Israel. They gave it another shot after UN Resolution 242 in 1967, only to be met with the Yom Kippur war in 1973. They gave it another shot in 1993 with the Oslo accords, which resulted in the killing of Rabin, followed by Arafat's unilateral rejection of those accords in front of Bill Clinton in 2000 and the Second Intifada.
Give it a shot, huh? Oh okay, let's just ignore everything that's happened so far, because Palestine has changed SO much since then. Hamas is... uh, still there. Hezbollah is uh... still there. Arafat is... still there. But sure, there's every reason for Israel to believe that things will get better in the near future, right?
And I'm not even going to get into the fact that your "suggestion", translated into plain English, basically means "surrender unliterally to all the terrorists' demands and they'll probably leave you alone."
To me, they're finally smartening up and ignoring the worldwide hippie peace movement. You want to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs, and although I'll admit to not even knowing who Rantisi was before Cyrus King brought him up in the argument about Yassin, what I did find out was absolutely mortifying and I'm not ashamed in the least to say I'm glad he's gone. Even the Palestinian Authority threw him on jail in multiple occasions. To summarize Rantisi in a few short quotes:
| quote: | | By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews. |
| quote: | | There is no difference between Akko, Haifa, Gaza, Jaffa or Nablus. The Palestinian Intifada will continue until the last Zionist is banished. |
You deplore the killing of this man, who not only "inspired" the Hamas movement as did Yassin but actually personally helped to arm and drive it?
But this isn't about the Palestinian people, as you make it out to be. This is about the extremists, the dictators, the oppressive Islamic theocracy, and the Palestinians are as much a victim of this state of affairs as the Israelis because they are told every day to fight a futile and pointless war that nobody will ever win.
No, none of us think that "The Palestinians" will not stop trying to murder Israelis or conquer the entire land mass. The "Palestinians" won't propagate the violence, they'd be very happy to live through a day without seeing any uniformed military officers or hearing any gunshots or explosions. But the extremist and fanatics will, and there are just enough of them in the middle east to be a serious cause for concern when it comes to national security for a country like Israel.
Stop the platitudes and the rhetoric... that is all I can say. |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
No I think we should discussions like this in here once in a while,and if you dont like to read this thread or dont understand it,then dont come in. :D |
I knew some loser would say that.
Pfft. whatever. :rolleyes: |
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| discojoe |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
I dont take either side in this conflict. I think the palestinians and israelis are equally to blame for this whole fiasco..
Having said that though. I think killing these guys instead of putting them on trial makes Israel as much of a terrorist as the palestinian suicide bombers.
Sadly, most people of both races only want peace. |
wow that was well said.. and pretty much how i feel |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
I knew some loser would say that.
Pfft. whatever. :rolleyes: |
Iam loser because?? :rolleyes: X 100000000000000000000000000 |
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| bass drive |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
I try to save most of this debate for the poli forum, but before we get out of hand with rhetoric here...
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digidude. Arguing with you is good for losing weight :p
about the issue. In my opinion, Palestinian resistance is legit because they are fighting occupation, but if I were Jewish, I'd be happy after what happened (I am not saying it's the right way of dealing with things) |
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| dEsidEL |
if ur enemy throws stones you throw bread
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| drgoodvibe |
| ohh Aarron i'm gonna luv replying to your post, its funny when you accuse me of spewing rhetoric when your just as guilty. It's fine though i'll reply in kind tommorow, I've got other things to do on a Sat night atm. :D ;) |
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| dEsidEL |
| quote: | Originally posted by drgoodvibe
ohh Aarron i'm gonna luv replying to your post, its funny when you accuse me of spewing rhetoric when your just as guilty. It's fine though i'll reply in kind tommorow, I've got other things to do on a Sat night atm. :D ;) |
hehe i can't wait .. this is gonna be exciting .. :D
round 1 ..
*ding* *ding* !!
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by drgoodvibe
ohh Aarron i'm gonna luv replying to your post, its funny when you accuse me of spewing rhetoric when your just as guilty. It's fine though i'll reply in kind tommorow, I've got other things to do on a Sat night atm. :D ;) |
Be my guest, just try to have a few facts to back up your position.
I don't consider what I say to be "rhetoric." That word is overused, people now use it to refer to anyone's opinion that they feel is long-winded or would rather not hear about. Of course that's not what the word rhetoric means at all. My argument is opinionated, maybe. Biased, perhaps. But the word rhetoric carries the implication of a vacuous argument with no real logic, and I can safely say I have provided fully-functional logic complete with quotes, facts, and references.
Of course I welcome any constructive debate on the topic, otherwise I wouldn't bother to post in the first place - I just hope that the response is thought-through and not another Ostrich argument. Cheers. |
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| drgoodvibe |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Be my guest, just try to have a few facts to back up your position.
I don't consider what I say to be "rhetoric." That word is overused, people now use it to refer to anyone's opinion that they feel is long-winded or would rather not hear about. Of course that's not what the word rhetoric means at all. My argument is opinionated, maybe. Biased, perhaps. But the word rhetoric carries the implication of a vacuous argument with no real logic, and I can safely say I have provided fully-functional logic complete with quotes, facts, and references.
Of course I welcome any constructive debate on the topic, otherwise I wouldn't bother to post in the first place - I just hope that the response is thought-through and not another Ostrich argument. Cheers. |
oh no problem, it'll be my pleasure.. see you tommorow.. by the way, it is rhetoric. Just becuase you don't see it so, doesnt mean it isnt so. There wasnt any instance of my comments that were not logical or fully functional, and if you want facts I shall provide.
Cheers! |
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