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New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel! (pg. 4)
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| psychosomatica |
| Didn't we already learn our lesson from the LAST thread? |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arcticboy
I really don't have the time to get into a great big discussion and argue against Diginut point by point. I just want to point out that I am amazed at how few people get the following simple point. Palestinians use "terrorist" tactics because that's all that's available to them. If they had the ability to form a modern, powerful army and fight Israel that way, they would. So, it's ridiculous to call people's only way of resistance "terrorism". Terrorism is the "killing of innocent civilians for political purposes", whether it's done by an army or suicide bomber. I don't need to mention how many innocent civilians Israel's army has killed in their attacks, justifying it by saying "well, we were looking for terrorists".
If the US invaded Canada, and being as inferior militarily as we are, our only way of fighting them was by forming underground resistance and targetted suicide attacks against the Americans, would we be "terrorists"? |
And this argument means what exactly?
First of all, this addresses absolutely nothing in my original post. I realize you may be too "busy" to address it "point by point", but the fact is that you have not addressed a single one of the points I expressed. You merely came up with a straw-man argument deploring sentiment that's vaguely similar to my point of view.
In fact, it's not just a straw-man argument, it makes use of whole host of fallacious logic, only 3 types of which I'm going to bother to discuss:
1. The "False Dichotomy" or "Black and White" fallacy. Basically this term refers to an instance of faulty logic which claims "P can only be A or B, and it is not B, so it must be A." The logic is considered fallacious when it ignores a third option, C. In your case, your claim is that Hamas terrorists can only fight either with advanced heavy weapons or with traditional means of terrorism. But you ignore the third option, which is that they don't have to kill anyone. Many nations have been brutally conquered and oppressed to a far greater extent of magnitude than Palestine, and they don't systematically kill civilians in order to get "their" land back.
2. Attacking the person, or ad hominem tu quoque. A term used to refer to mounting an argument against a person by claiming that they don't "practice what they preach." The claim here is that we should not deplore Hamas terrorists because the IDF has committed similar acts. This fallacy is particularly disturbing in this instance, because it comes from the same people who insist that Israel should withdraw from occupied territory and withdraw IDF forces despite the ongoing threat of Palestinian violence. So in essence, you say that Israel should practice what it preaches, but Palestine does not have to.
In this case, I also call it the Ostrich argument. Why do I call it the Ostrich argument? Because it bears a remarkable likeness to burying your head in the ground and just ignoring whatever you don't want to see as if it somehow isn't there. Turning a blind eye to the nationwide glorification of martyrdom, the hate textbooks, the financial incentives to families of suicide bombers, as if it all has no relevance to the issue and that the terrorists only do what they do because they "have" to.
3. The Straw Man. In case there is anyone on the planet who doesn't know what a straw man is yet, it's a form of "logic" where you take someone's argument, construct a considerably weaker argument out of it (the "straw man"), and then attack the weak form of the argument. Suffice it to say that nobody here really cares about the means in which Hamas kills Israeli civilians, or whether they do it with suicide bombers or heavy weapons. The problem here is that they are killing civilians, not just as collateral damage but as deliberate targets. This IS terrorism, and it bears little to no resemblance to counterterrorist acts by the IDF which take out a few civilian casualties. It's easy to be a hippie and cry over the loss of life, but it's different when you live out there and know that somebody's going to die anyway.
In this case, you make a second straw man argument relating to the US invading Canada, which is so totally false an analogy it's not even worth discussing. Suffice it to say, Palestine did not even exist as a state before Israel sprung up, and Israel was weak as a kitten in the early days (pre-1948) when it started to be attacked by the people now known as Palestinians. This is hardly similar to a well-established country attacking its stated ally north of the border.
Hamas is a terrorist organization with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. It says so unequivocally in their own charter. The IDF, on the other hand, may have a few shakey policies but certainly and without question acknowledges Palestine's right to exist as a state.
Once again, I get tired of the rhetoric here. If anyone has an actual argument to present, then be my guest. But the fact of the matter is that Hamas has always chickened out after seeing Israel target its leadership, and I have no doubt that it will continue to do so.
Hardcore trancer, I've never watched CNN in my life. You've yet to come up with a single argument that does not take the form of a sweeping generalization or an ad hominem attack. |
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| sufee_b |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Wow, what a clever little one-liner. Obviously, with your superior intellect, you don't even NEED an argument. And all this time I thought I knew something, you've proven me wrong. :rolleyes:
Honestly now, if you're going to make bull claims like this (I assume that the "first biggest" is the USA, since anti-American rhetoric comes hand-in-hand with anti-Israel rhetoric, and I won't even bother to get into detail on the hypocrisy of America-bashing coming from a Canadian), at least have the decency to provide even a modicum of support for that assertion. Like I said before, I know this isn't a debate forum, but I really don't think it's a place to foam at the mouth and scream vacuous invectives either.
It's funny how the Israel supporters who actually have something to say (whether or not it's correct) are always accused of spewing rhetoric, where the majority of Palestine supporters are content to run off one-liners just like this one: "Israel is a terrorist". "Sharon is a terrorist." "This will only spill more blood." "You can never defeat the resistance." Blah blah blah blah, the only legitimate arguments I've ever seen are from Cyrus King and 2 or 3 others in the poli forum - don't you people have anything better to do? |
Again thats ALL opinion, let me re-phrase it.... you like Cyrus's argument better. And rhetoric works both ways.
And Israeli's do have a fear of suicide bombings everyday and that is sad. But look at the OTHER SIDE FOR ONCE. What about the fear of having your house bull dozed, or being snipered by an Israeli soldier "accidently", or being ran over by a bull dozer alive like Rachel Corrie, or living in a building with 350 people and having the Israeli military drop a missle on the whole building JUST TO KILL ONE MISERABLE PERSON! |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by sufee_b
Again thats ALL opinion, let me re-phrase it.... you like Cyrus's argument better. And rhetoric works both ways.
And Israeli's do have a fear of suicide bombings everyday and that is sad. But look at the OTHER SIDE FOR ONCE. What about the fear of having your house bull dozed, or being snipered by an Israeli soldier "accidently", or being ran over by a bull dozer alive like Rachel Corrie, or living in a building with 350 people and having the Israeli military drop a missle on the whole building JUST TO KILL ONE MISERABLE PERSON! |
Dont you know??Isreal is doing all this to protect itelf!!:rolleyes: :whip: :whip: :whip: |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by sufee_b
And Israeli's do have a fear of suicide bombings everyday and that is sad. But look at the OTHER SIDE FOR ONCE. What about the fear of having your house bull dozed |
Most of those bulldozed houses have turned out to be "nests" for suicide bombers, or at least the houses of Hamas terrorists.
And while I don't necessarily agree with a policy of bulldozing the houses of suicide bombers as a form of collective punishment, it is all they can do to offset the collective reward ("martyrdom payments") offered by Arafat. That's not necessarily a justification for what Israel does, but let's put it this way - if you don't have any suicide bombers in the family, you have nothing to fear.
| quote: | | or being snipered by an Israeli soldier "accidently" |
Okay, now you're going overboard. Innocents do get caught in the crossfire, for sure, but I have NEVER heard of a SNIPER "accidentally" hitting the wrong target. The whole point of a sniper is a precision attack!
| quote: | | or being ran over by a bull dozer alive like Rachel Corrie |
Alright - like I said, happens sometimes, and I never said that the Palestinians had excellent living conditions. Israeli occupation is an oppressive environment, no doubt, but you're going overboard with the rest of your criticism.
| quote: | | or living in a building with 350 people and having the Israeli military drop a missle on the whole building JUST TO KILL ONE MISERABLE PERSON! |
Yes, that would be frightening, if it had ever actually happened.
While I'm sure many of you would LIKE it to be a "matter of opinion" whether or not someone's post has any sense to it, all you really need is an elementary-school-level class in logic to realize that NOT everything is a matter of opinion. Yes, the I/P debate does indeed have many subjective aspects to it, but it's not difficult for any rational person to see that whiney one-liners are not valid arguments.
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Dont you know??Isreal is doing all this to protect itelf!!:rolleyes: :whip: :whip: :whip: |
Don't you know?? Palestine is bombing school buses to defend itself against the Israeli army!!:rolleyes: :whip: :whip: |
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| sufee_b |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Okay, now you're going overboard. Innocents do get caught in the crossfire, for sure, but I have NEVER heard of a SNIPER "accidentally" hitting the wrong target. The whole point of a sniper is a precision attack!
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:conf: :conf: :conf: :conf: :conf: :conf: :conf: :conf: :conf: :conf:
Brian Avery - "accidently" shot by sniper
http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/...brianavery.html
Thomas Hurndell - "accidently" shot by sniper
http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/...om_hurndall.pdf
Do you want me to extend the list to 1,237...becausee i could.
And here are some stats:
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $568,744 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
943 Israelis and 2,828 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000
6,302 Israelis and 25,484 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000
The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67%
106 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 535 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
1 Israeli home has been destroyed by Palestinians and 2,202 Palestinian homes have been completely destroyed (14,436 partially destroyed) since September 29, 2000.
60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.
;) ;) ;) ;) |
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| sufee_b |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Yes, that would be frightening, if it had ever actually happened.
While I'm sure many of you would LIKE it to be a "matter of opinion" whether or not someone's post has any sense to it, all you really need is an elementary-school-level class in logic to realize that NOT everything is a matter of opinion. Yes, the I/P debate does indeed have many subjective aspects to it, but it's not difficult for any rational person to see that whiney one-liners are not valid arguments.
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"if it had ever actually happened."
7 times my friend!!!
"all you really need is an elementary-school-level class in logic to realize that NOT everything is a matter of opinion."
Thats funny, you're telling me i need schooling on the subject... well tell that to the Canadian and US Gov't that chose my panel to speak to +3000 Gov't memebers and public on the subject
:tongue2 |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by d!abolic
This should send a very strong message to the terrorists. |
which message?:rolleyes: |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Don't you know?? Palestine is bombing school buses to defend itself against the Israeli army!!:rolleyes: :whip: :whip: |
If it is not fair game,perhapes you should give the Palastine and army as big as Isreal,then it'll be a fair game. |
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| Arcticboy |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
And this argument means what exactly?
First of all, this addresses absolutely nothing in my original post. I realize you may be too "busy" to address it "point by point", but the fact is that you have not addressed a single one of the points I expressed. You merely came up with a straw-man argument deploring sentiment that's vaguely similar to my point of view. |
Dude, my post was not aimed at you at all, so chill. It was a general statement aimed to all those who talk about "terrorists" and what they deserve.
One point though. It is difficult not to see your total bias (which you also admitted to) on this issue from your ability to easily brush aside killing of civilians by Israeli's as "that's all they can do" to get the bad guys. I wonder if you have the same view towards the Palestinian suicide bombers who feel that "that's all they can do". I personally don't condone either, but I will not label one as terrorist, as the pro-israeli RHETORIC seems to like to do.
This will be my last post as I don't find it useful to debate unless the people debating are doing so in good faith, with the possiblity that they would change their minds if they hear good arguments. And yes, I AM too busy to write an essay here like your posts.
By the way, sufee_b, you post was brilliant. ;) |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by sufee_b
Do you want me to extend the list to 1,237...becausee i could. |
By all means, because that number sounds utterly ridiculous. I wouldn't mind seeing a few from documented sources as well, not that I doubt the veracity of these "first hand accounts" but some non-partisan sources would be nice.
| quote: | And here are some stats:
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $568,744 per day to Palestinian NGO’s. |
It's clearly obvious that the US isn't literally giving them $15 million each day, do we have any information on how this statistic was calculated and what its based on?
| quote: | | Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. |
Oh that's interesting... I could have sworn that resolution 242, the only resolution actually passed by the security council, targeted both of them. The rest of the resolutions are General Assembly resolutions, and I don't even want to get started on how "level-headed" those are. :rolleyes:
| quote: | 943 Israelis and 2,828 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000
6,302 Israelis and 25,484 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000
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106 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 535 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. |
Interesting statistics, but let's look at them in more detail:
- Approximately 80% of Israeli deaths were noncombatants; approximately 30% of Palestinian deaths were noncombatants
- 25% of Israeli deaths are noncombatant women; 3% of Palestinian deaths are noncombatant women
- 25% of Israeli deaths are people over 45; 3% of Palestinian deaths are people over 45
- "Children" in your statistic refers to age 17 and under; the majority of Palestinian children cited by this statistic are in fact teenage boys over the age of 11. Not sure about the Israeli statistic but I remember hearing it was about 50% over age 11.
- The cited statistics do not specify how or why these people died and the studies which grouped them did not take this into account. At one point you actually state that your statistic reflects Palestinians "killed by Israelis" and Israelis "killed by Palestinians", but this is in fact not the case at all, those numbers are just overall deaths, and they include:
- At least one instance of an intra-Palestinian scuffle involving no Israelis whatsoever, which killed several hundred Palestinians and injured many more;
- Several groupings of long Islamic names that are commonly thought to be the same person;
- The "martyrs" themselves, or "attempted" martyrs who failed to actually kill any Israelis, which comprises a hefty chunk of the dead Palestinian "children".
| quote: | | The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67% |
Yes and almost everyone in the other UAE countries is employed. :rolleyes: That rate is pretty typical of all the Islamic theocracies in the middle east. As for Israel's unemployment rate, I think it's great how it's actually lower than several countries in North America and Europe. It's great that they're doing so well, despite being in a neverending war zone.
| quote: | | 60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements. |
That seems to go without saying, since Palestinians don't have the capability to "confiscate" Israeli land. Additionally you call it "confiscated" land which is a heavily loaded version of the more realistic "militarily occupied" land. The occupation, however, is not illegal, and words like "confiscated" only serve to confuse the real issues.
| quote: | "if it had ever actually happened."
7 times my friend!!! |
You are telling me that 7 times, Israel has killed over 350 inhabitants of a single building in order to target a single person? PROVE IT!
| quote: | | Thats funny, you're telling me i need schooling on the subject... well tell that to the Canadian and US Gov't that chose my panel to speak to +3000 Gov't memebers and public on the subject |
I'd very much like to tell that to them. Care to give me some contact info? :) |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
If it is not fair game,perhapes you should give the Palastine and army as big as Isreal,then it'll be a fair game. |
And exactly what would that accomplish? Simply because the "game" isn't "fair" does not for a moment imply that they should be playing it at all.
| quote: | Originally posted by Arcticboy
One point though. It is difficult not to see your total bias (which you also admitted to) on this issue from your ability to easily brush aside killing of civilians by Israeli's as "that's all they can do" to get the bad guys. I wonder if you have the same view towards the Palestinian suicide bombers who feel that "that's all they can do". I personally don't condone either, but I will not label one as terrorist, as the pro-israeli RHETORIC seems to like to do.
This will be my last post as I don't find it useful to debate unless the people debating are doing so in good faith, with the possiblity that they would change their minds if they hear good arguments. And yes, I AM too busy to write an essay here like your posts. |
I'm sorry you feel that way, but as you can plainly see I'm one of the few people in here that actually bothers to form an argument rather than running off one-liners. I would change my mind if I heard a good argument, and I have several times in the past in the poli forum, but I still have yet to hear one single, good, solid argument. Perhaps you'd prefer if I argued like hardcore trancer? That's definitely not "rhetoric", right?
I have never once labelled Palestine as a "terrorist" state, the only people I call "terrorists" are the suicide bombers and the terrorist groups like Hamas. I did not brush aside the killing of civilians, in fact, I believe I specifically said that I don't agree with all of Israel's policy and don't really agree with the whole collective punishment thing.
If you're too busy to argue logically then fine, but that is no reason to argue illogically and with ad hominem attacks. |
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